The Arguments of Lemmings

by

Besides endlessly insisting on achdut with godless Israeli mass murderers, the Jewish lemmings of the Holy Land often claim that Medinat Yehudah is physically impossible. One prominent lemming radio personality recently wrote on her blog that it is as ludicrous to suggest that the Jewish communities of the Holy Land secede from Medinat Israel as it is to suggest that Brooklyn secede from the United States. On the face of it, the arguments presented by the lemmings seem formidable. In reality, they are as solid as a fogbank. Lemming opposition to the idea of independence is the product of a lazy suburbanite mentality. The arguments of the Jewish lemmings who protest the “impossibility” and the “insanity” of any attempt to liberate Medinat Yehudah from Israeli occupation are based on nothing more than the desire by lazy, infantile spoiled brats to receive everything on a silver platter without ever lifting a finger. Let’s examine the arguments of lemmings in detail so that we can put their nonsense to rest once and for all.

The Jewish lemmings of the Holy Land argue that without the Israeli occupiers, the so-called “settlements” of Yosh would have neither electricity, nor food, nor even water. They argue that without the “protection” of Israeli kapos in green and blue suits, the so-called “settlements” would be overwhelmed by the surrounding Arabs and the so-called “settlers” would be massacred because the average so-called “settlement” has no militarily worthwhile defensive structures whatsoever, even if there were soldiers to man them. They argue that without the Israeli checkpoints that one can find by the dozen in Yosh, the roads that link the so-called “settlements” together would be rendered unsafe for travel. Without Israeli occupation troops, the argument goes, the so-called “settlers” would be cut off even from each other, much less from the outside world. The lemmings argue that nearly half of the population of Yosh is composed of children and another quarter of women, thus leaving any potential independent Jewish State with a mere 40,000-50,000 able-bodied men to defend against roughly 700,000 able-bodied male “Palestinian” squatters, the regular armies of Jordan, Egypt and Syria, contingents from every regular army in the Moslem world plus tens of thousands of jihadist volunteers. The lemmings argue that the Jews of Yosh are essentially unarmed, pointing out that maybe a third of the Jewish households in Yosh actually have firearms and that most of these firearms are pistols, while the rest are mostly M-16s and their derivatives, weapons in name only unless one is a superpower with unlimited logistical resources or a police force whose weapons spend most of their time sitting in nice clean lockers. The settlers of Yosh have no antitank weapons of any kind, no antiaircraft weapons, no machineguns, no mortars, no tanks, no aircraft and no artillery. The lemmings point out that the Jews of Yosh are militarily unskilled and lack trained military leadership. They argue that the holy city of Yerushalayim essentially bisects Yosh and, remaining as it will under Israeli control, the municipal zone of Yerushalayim will cut Medinat Yehudah in half. In short, they argue that a call for Medinat Yehudah is a call for mass suicide. And if things are permitted to remain the way they are today, the arguments of lemmings would indeed be correct.

Everything the lemmings say is true. The so-called “settlements” of Yosh are nothing more than unviable suburbs. The “settlers” are nothing more than effete suburbanites who moved to Yosh in order to feel like “pioneers” while in reality sucking down millions of shekels in Israeli subsidies, tax breaks and security spending. Indeed if one is a “settler” one enjoys all the advantages of a suburban lifestyle. Land is cheap, taxes are low, the community is friendly, the schools are well funded, there is a free clinic for every 100 residents and big city shopping malls are just a hop, skip and a jump away via special suburbanite-only roads.

Since 1967, the so-called “settlements” have cost the Israeli State something on the order of NIS 450,000,000,000. Counting direct and indirect subsidies, kapo “security”, road construction, tax breaks and so forth, the Israelis spend on the order of NIS 40,000 annually for every so-called “settler”!

What’s more, securing the unviable suburbs of Yosh is the most manpower-intensive task faced by the Israeli army. In order to man the checkpoints that allow the Yeshite suburbanites to use their special roads without being bothered by pesky Arabs, the Israelis must use literally thousands of soldiers. Thousands more are used to “protect” the unviable suburbs themselves. While reliable statistics are hard to come by, one can say with reasonable certainty that the Israelis must deploy AT LEAST one soldier for every five “settlers”. While these soldiers waste their time “securing” organic goat farms and frisking Arabs at checkpoints, they are not doing what soldiers SHOULD be doing, namely training for war. Their potential combat effectiveness drops exponentially every day they spend playing policeman. Their initiative disappears, their military skills waste away from disuse and their discipline grows ever laxer. In short, soldiers misused as donut munchers become, no surprise, donut munchers. Indeed, many IDF “soldiers” spend the vast majority of their time in service playing traffic cop at checkpoints and leave the army with no military skills whatsoever. They then clutter up the reserves, rendering the latter worthless in the event of mobilization.

While the moronic Dan Halutz has been much maligned, and deservedly so, for Israel’s appalling performance during the Second Lebanon War, the truth is that he is only partly responsible for that disaster. The IDF had spent decades deteriorating into a donut-munching, checkpoint-manning gendarmerie. The mistake made by Halutz was failing to recognize this fact and actually attempting to lead the IDF to war. The existence of the Yeshite suburbs is largely responsible for the decay of the IDF from world’s best-trained army in 1973 to the incompetent gaggle of Keystone Kops we saw clowning around Lebanon during the Second Lebanon War. Today, under the leadership of Gaby Ashkenazy, emergency measures have been taken to restore the combat effectiveness of the IDF. But these measures are ultimately unsustainable. As long as the unviable suburbs of Yosh continue to exist in their present form, even the solidly competent, if lackluster, run-of-the-mill army we saw during the latest incursion into Gaza is bound to irreversibly decay away. When it comes to combat effectiveness, the IDF is like Lewis Carroll’s Red Queen, running ever harder just to stay in place. And all because of the “settlements”.

From the perspective of Israel’s ruling elites, not only are the “settlements” of Yosh a demographic threat to their political power but they are also an economic and security millstone around Israel’s neck. No wonder the Israelis want to rid themselves of the Jews of Yosh! What sane person wouldn’t, in their shoes?

So what, dear reader, is the answer? Should the Jews of the Holy Land meekly accept the situation as it is? Should they go on, lemming-like, marching to destruction with the cries of “Achdut! Achdut!”? Should they do nothing while the Israelis demolish Jewish homes, beat Jewish children with clubs and hand ever more territories, funds and arms to the genocidal Moslems? Should they go on waving orange ribbons and hugging Israeli soldiers while waiting for the IDF to precipitously pull out of Yosh, leaving the mitnakhalim to run for their lives or be massacred? Should they meekly lie down like sheep and die?

Every day the Israelis speak about “decolonization”. Those of you who are old enough remember the “decolonization” of Africa. You remember the footage of Pieds-Noirs blindly running for their lives, crowding onto airstrips and docks, shouting in futility for escape that would never come, whole families massacred by AK-wielding psychopaths hopped up on dope and pure hate. Is this what you want to see again? Is this what you want your Jewish brothers and sisters in Yosh to experience in the very heartland of the Holy Land promised to us by Hashem, if only we have the cran to hold it?

And THAT would be just a down payment on the full horror to come! For after those first scenes of chaos and massacre there will come UN troops to “secure” the Green Line and a barrage of rockets the likes of which Israel has never seen, launched from behind the shield provided by these UN troops against every major Israeli city. There will come Islamic pogroms against Jews in Akko and Yaffa and an Islamic revolt in the Galilee. There will come terror upon terror and chaos upon chaos and pogrom upon pogrom until the final flood of Moslem “refugees” under an Arab “right of return”. And on their heels will come Arab tanks and a Second Holocaust, the Holocaust of hatchets and knives! As the Israeli ruling elites escape into the sunset on IAF transport planes loaded with the national treasury, six million Jews will be butchered under the eyes of a joyous goyshe world! Is THIS the reality you want to accept? Or should we perhaps act to CHANGE the present reality?

The first step in changing the reality of Yosh is to recognize that it is a reality entirely of the Yeshites’ own making. Everything that is wrong in Yosh today is wrong because the Jews who live there made it that way. Everything that is wrong in Yosh can be fixed if the Jews of Yosh choose to fix it. Let’s examine the major problems one by one.

Problem number one is attitude. The vast majority of the Jews currently living in Yosh never set out to be pioneers of any kind. They merely put on airs and came for the cheap land and the tax breaks. Fortunately, many of their children have grown up to reject the rank materialism of their parents. It is now up to the young generation, the so-called Hilltop Youth, to win or lose Jewish sovereignty in Yosh. It is up to these heroic youth to win or lose the very survival of the six million Jews who currently reside in the Holy Land. And they must do this despite and in spite of their lemmingoid parents.

The Hilltop Youth of today have an incoherent anarcho-messianic ideology. They instinctively reject the materialism of their parents and the authority of the illegitimate Israeli State. They instinctively love Eretz Yisrael and desire to assert Jewish sovereignty over every precious square millimeter of it, from the Nile to the Euphrates. But because they have never been taught what settlement is, they do not know how to settle. Because they have never learned the arts of self-government, they have nothing but anarchy and a vague longing for a messianic Jewish monarchy to pose as an alternative to Israeli oppression. The first step, therefore, is to reach out to the Hilltop Youth and to teach them about Medinat Yehudah, about Jewish self-government and self-determination, about Jewish security and about the nature of a true settlement. This last, from a practical perspective, is absolutely vital. For without viable settlements we can have neither long term Jewish security, nor Jewish self-government, nor Jewish self-determination. Without true settlements, we CANNOT have a viable Medinat Yehudah.

To understand what a settlement really is, we need not go far. Everyone who received even a smidgeon of proper education in America knows all about Plymouth Colony, one of the first viable English settlements in the New World.

Plymouth was a true settlement. Its residents fed themselves and defended themselves. They neither relied on English utilities nor on troops provided by the English crown. They supported themselves financially via agriculture and trade and certainly did not demand English subsidies. Nor did they pay English taxes. They made their own laws, judged themselves in their own courts and organized their own affairs via a government structured as they saw fit. In short, Plymouth was as self-contained and self-reliant as its residents could make it. It is true that occasional communication with the mother country was essential, but for the most part the settlers fed themselves, clothed themselves, armed themselves and governed themselves. Indeed, this was the very purpose that brought the settlers to the New World in the first place – a desire to build a better community and a more holy society away from the sin and corruption of England.

The attitude of these settlers created the spirit of self-reliance and rugged individualism that would one day create The United States of America, drive its citizens ever westward in pursuit of Manifest Destiny and turn that nation into the greatest superpower in the history of Mankind. Even today, though the pioneering spirit of America is long faded from its peak, the attitude of self-reliance and self-determination fostered by the early settlers continues to make America the world’s cultural and scientific leader, not to mention the largest economy in the world.

It is this pioneering spirit that the holy vanguard of the Jewish People in our time, the heroic Hilltop Youth, must adopt if Medinat Yehudah is to be born. And they must ram this attitude down the throats of Yeshite suburbanites, at gunpoint if necessary, for the alternative to Medinat Yehudah is not merely a pogrom in Yosh but a Second Holocaust and the extermination of half the world’s Jewry!

Once we set ourselves as a goal the creation of self-sufficient, self-reliant, self-governing and self-defending Jewish communities in Yosh to replace and supplant the unviable suburbs of today’s effete pseudo-settlers, we will have adopted the mindset that will make Medinat Yehudah not only possible but nearly inevitable. Once we have adopted such a mindset and set it to spread among the Jews of the Holy Land, we are more than halfway to ultimate victory.

The first step in establishing Jewish settlements is the establishment of Jewish security. It is clear that such security cannot be established at once over the entire territory of Yosh. Rather, Jewish security and consequent Jewish sovereignty must be established within a certain radius of every Jewish community and these secure zones then merged as the capabilities of Jewish self-defense forces grow.

Armed with this understanding, we can envision a hilltop settlement populated by pioneering young men and women, surrounded by a berm, an antitank ditch, a minefield and barbed wire. We can envision such a settlement provided with secure, defensible houses, each of which is designed to act as an independent strongpoint. We can envision that this settlement conceals a network of hidden bunkers and tunnels interconnecting its houses and other defenses in a booby-trapped maze deliberately designed to aid the defender and confuse and kill the enemy infiltrator unfamiliar with it. We can envision that the population of this settlement is universally armed and militarily trained regardless of gender. We can envision that the settlers are willing and able to use any means necessary to keep marauding goyim and Israeli kapos out of the immediate vicinity of the settlement.

We can also recognize that the means to establish such a settlement are readily available to the Jews of the Holy Land.

Creating zones free of Israeli kapos is as simple as refusing to serve in the IDF and greeting every gaggle of poisonous Israeli uniformed scum with a barrage of rocks, curses and garbage thrown by the majority of the settlers while a minority of well-concealed, determined Jews engage the Israeli enemy, his camps and infrastructure with sniper fire, roadside bombs, mortars and rockets.

It is true that some settlements will be destroyed by the Israelis and many Jews will be murdered or imprisoned. Nonetheless, just as the Israelis eventually left Jenin and Ramallah in response to the Arab intifada, so they will leave the Jewish communities of Yosh in response to a Jewish intifada. In fact, they will leave these communities much faster, for the blows Jews can inflict can be far more painful. Over half of Tel Aviv’s water, for example, comes from wells in Western Yosh. These wells exist and operate because the Jews of Yosh permit them to exist and to operate. Nor can the Israelis prevent the Jews from using high explosives to turn off Tel Aviv’s electricity on a daily basis. Nor can they stop determined Jews from planting explosives in North Tel Aviv. An Arab can be profiled. But all a Jew need do to look Israeli is shave, take off his kippah and dress like a goy. The Israelis cannot find him in the crowd and thus cannot stop him. This is doubly true for a Jewish girl dressed and painted like the average Israeli whore. Such a girl could go anywhere in Tel Aviv, blending perfectly among the thousands of half-naked whores on the streets of that cesspool, and do whatever she wants while Israeli kapos ogle her exposed body instead of paying attention to her bulging backpack.

As the IDF is easily dislodged, so too are weapons easily obtained from its bumbling soldiers. Whether by infiltration, theft, bribery, subterfuge, outright force or some combination of the above, the Jews can obtain every infantry weapon in the Israeli arsenal. Additional weapons can be purchased abroad and smuggled into Yosh. The Hebron community alone spends something like $3000 every day on lectures and tours for bored Israeli kapos who are trying to get away from their duties. These lectures do nothing at all to deter the Israeli kapos from participating in pogroms, as we recently saw in Beit HaShalom. But for the price of every futile lecture, it is possible to purchase 4 to 6 AKs.

The building of defensive structures requires nothing more than cinderblock, cement, sand, shovels and will. It is the lack of will more than anything else that prevents the suburbanites of Yosh from building secure housing. These people would rather live in paper trailers and be killed by terrorist bullets flying through the walls than spend a few days putting a meter of rammed earth between two cinderblock walls. Thankfully, Yosh does not suffer from a shortage of dirt. Next time a Yeshite lemming complains to you about his insecure paper trailer, tell him that he should stop whining like an overgrown schoolgirl and DO SOMETHING about it.

The next issue facing those who would establish true settlements in Yosh is water. A single person requires a minimum of three liters of clean water per day for drinking. Adding to this the necessity of washing, cooking and housekeeping, we can easily double this number. And don’t forget that a settlement would also have animals to care for and crops to water. This is a serious problem. However, it is not unsolvable.

First of all, most communities in Yosh sit on top of an aquifer. All the settlers have to do is drill wells. Unfortunately, much of the ground water in Yosh is brackish, polluted or outright salt water. Wildcat drilling is more likely to hit this kind of water than it is to hit the mountain aquifer. Even if the services of a trained geologist are available and the well hits fresh water, this water will still require purification if not outright distillation. Luckily, solar stills are fairly simple to construct, nor is Yosh short of sunlight. The Yeshite lemmings who spend millions on heating windowless houses can certainly be made to cough up the funds for some activated charcoal and a few high-power UV lights.

Crudely filtered and distilled well water can provide for crops, animals and washing. If clean water for human consumption cannot be obtained from wells, one can rely on atmospheric water condensers, also known as water from air systems. While in the past these systems were wasteful of power and prohibitively expensive, recent advances in computing technology have rendered such devices quiet, compact and efficient. An example of the type is the Water Mill, a residential product marketed by the Canadian company Element Four (http://www.elementfour.com/). This device takes a nominal 300 Watts to deliver a nominal 12 liters per day. In other words, you get a day’s water supply for the same energy it takes to run three incandescent light bulbs. By providing three or four of these for every home in a Jewish settlement, we can ensure an ample supply of pure drinking water for every household. Coupled with a decentralized power generation and distribution system, such devices also give a tremendous defensive advantage by making it very difficult to deprive the settlement of water.

Finally, we must not forget the oldest water technology of all – cisterns to store collected rainwater. Though it might surprise some readers to learn this, it does in fact rain in Yosh, especially in the winter. Sometimes it rains quite a lot. The crying shame of it is that most of the water simply soaks away into the ground and re-evaporates when the sun comes out. As anyone who has climbed into the cisterns of Masada and taken a look at the high-water marks on the walls knows, this need not be the case. The construction of a network of cisterns is certainly not beyond the capabilities of real settlers anymore than the construction of a network of tunnels and bunkers. Nor should the Jews of the Holy Land have difficulty finding a civil engineer or two to design such networks.

With a distributed network of deep underground cisterns, atmospheric water condensers and a well or two, the average Jewish settlement would find itself amply supplied with water.

While we are on the subject of water, let us not forget to say a word or two about conservation. There is absolutely no reason not to use dirty wash water to irrigate crops. In fact, the crops would benefit from the organics in the water. Similarly, there is no reason to use flush toilets when composting toilets are readily available. A flush toilet wastes 12 liters of water per flush and produces a waste disposal problem. A well-designed and well-constructed composting toilet uses no water and produces valuable fertilizer. This is a no-brainer.

Now that we have addressed water and security, we can talk about power and food. Again, the reality is that Yosh does not need Israel to supply itself with either.

Mercifully, sunlight is plentiful in Eretz Yisrael and there is plenty of wind on the hilltops of our homeland. Solar dishes with stirling engines, such as the SES SunCatcher system, can generate as much as 25kW per dish. Wind turbines are even more efficient. The largest generate power in the megawatt range, while small models with a rotor diameter of about seven meters can give 10 to 12 kW for a one-time cost of about $30,000 and the elbow grease that goes into putting up a 25-meter prefab tower.

Given that the average house will consume 4-5 kW, a distributed system with a small turbine for every two homes, for example, would do quite nicely for the average community. Sadly in such an arrangement the poor dears would probably have to give up their power-hog AC. It is said, though this might be a rumor, that they didn’t have air conditioners in the times of Dovid HaMelech. Somehow, they survived.

Finally, there are always solar panels. One can hardly imagine a house without a roof. There is no reason why a roof cannot host a solar panel.

The same cisterns that store the settlement’s drinking water can be used to store excess power from solar and wind generators for use during off hours. All that is needed is a pair of cisterns at different heights from one another and a water pipe in between. During hours when excess power is available, a pump moves the water from the lower cistern to the upper. When the situation is reversed, the pump becomes a generator as the water flows from the upper cistern to the lower. If building cisterns large enough is too difficult, one can rely on large banks of batteries. These are fairly cheap and easy to install, if not very efficient. Nor are small generators prohibitively expensive, though they consume valuable fuel.

With all of these options, no settlement needs to go without electric power unless those who live there are either brain-dead or completely penniless. We know that the Jews of Yosh do not have the latter problem, as they can afford to waste American donors’ money on $15,000 lawns and $10,000 mini-parks.

Now, let’s talk about food. The lemmings would have us believe that the Jews of Yosh cannot survive without the Israeli produce they buy at the local makolet. After all, it is so difficult to grow one’s own food. Why you need a whole… 20m by 20m lawn to feed one person! Don’t believe me? Here is a university study to prove it! http://www.cityfarmer.org/albie.html The college student involved in this study fed himself for almost a year on a 4500 square foot garden with a mere 2500 square feet of French Bed, plus paths, compost piles and propagation space. The French Bed cultivation system is so efficient that he did not even bother to use a composting toilet. Instead, he relied solely on compost produced from the garden’s own plant waste. Lest you think he starved, note that the diet thereby produced consisted of 2900 vegan calories a day, more than enough for backbreaking labor or heavy combat, much less bare survival. With quinoa and amaranth as high-protein crops, he did not need meat at all. A 50-50 mixture of toasted amaranth and wheat provides roughly the same nutrition as beef. And do not think that the reason this experiment worked is some kind of magical extra-fertile California soil. The French Bed method, also known as the Square Foot Garden method, produces its own soil. This, in fact, is one of the secrets behind this method’s success. Truth be told, the kid who did the experiment was an average gardener and he even managed to screw up his potato cultivation to the point that the crop yielded less than half of what it should have.

A small outpost of 40 persons needs a garden roughly 150 by 300 meters to completely feed its population and even provide extra food. The fact of the matter is, the Jews of Yosh could feed themselves without trouble and without Israeli supplies. By properly reorganizing their communities and installing proper housing and sanitation, they could produce a surplus of high-quality organic food for storage against siege or for sale to raise funds for the community. Of course, imported bread, meat and junk food from the makolet taste better! Also, a lazy suburbanite might break a nail if he had to actually use a shovel! It’s much easier to suck down Israeli subsidies, even if said subsidies come with yassamniks beating and raping your daughters, throwing your children out of windows and demolishing your homes!

Finally, let’s talk about the demographics of Yosh. The reason there are so few able-bodied men in Yosh is primarily because the Yeshites’ elitist acceptance committees bar from their communities anyone who might wear the wrong color shirt or occasionally drink an extra glass of wine. With the pickiness of typical suburbanite snobs, the Yeshites accept only the “right kind” of people – mindless lemmings like themselves with cushy jobs in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. And once they have successfully excluded those who might feed and defend their bedroom communities, these people have the gall to claim that because their suburb is an unviable bedroom community, they cannot survive without the Israeli State.

Dear reader, when Avri Ran needed warm bodies to man his settlement projects, did he form an elitist acceptance committee to pick over a list of candidates and find the “right” people? No! He took in Israeli street kids from broken homes, taught them Torah, taught them agriculture, taught them self-defense and made them into Jews. He did what the Israelis did to the Sephardim, only in reverse. What he produced were true pioneers, young men and women of unflagging dedication, with high initiative, plenty of aggression, a healthy disrespect for authority and a will to fight and, if necessary, to kill for Hashem, Am Yisrael, Eretz Yisrael and the Holy Torah. Were it not for the fact that Avri Ran belongs to the dying generation that continues to feed itself on achdut delusions, his kids would have long ago raised the banner of armed struggle for Medinat Yehudah.

In Israel there are thousands of lost kids, broken kids, kids looking for meaning and purpose, wasting their lives with drugs, booze and mindless sex. There are tens of thousands of young men and women who feel out of place, who hate the system, hate their government and feel trapped in a maze with no answers and no exits. Half the population of Sderot is in psychiatric treatment because for seven years they have been bombed with rockets fired by agents of the State of Israel, made out of materials supplied by the State of Israel. For seven years these people have seen the Israeli army pretending to retaliate by bombing empty fields. For seven years they have cowered in basements and watched in dread as their children went off to school, not knowing if they would ever see them again. For seven years they have seen that the Israeli government, supposedly THEIR government, is helping the Moslem enemy. For seven years they have seen that the Israeli army, supposedly THEIR army, is aiding and abetting the firing of rockets against them. They see this and they cannot admit to themselves what they are seeing and they are going NUTS!

Dear reader, what would happen if settlers from Yosh, TRUE settlers, not suburbanite poseurs, were to come to Sderot with buses and tell everyone there that anyone who wants to come live on a settlement where there are no Islamic rockets and no Israeli kapo “security” has 45 minutes to get on the bus, provided they are willing to avenge tenfold anything inflicted upon them and provided that they reject the authority and legitimacy of the State of Israel? What if these buses drove into the squalid expellee camp of Nitzan and told the residents that everyone who was under 18 during the Gush Katif pogrom is welcome to come settle in Yosh, as long as he or she is willing to put a hand upon a Torah scroll and swear in the Name of the Most High to fight, kill and, if necessary, to die fighting anyone, including Israeli kapos and pogromschiks, to defend the yishuvim and the people of Medinat Yehudah? How many young men and women from twelve to their twenties would get on those buses, do you think?

The fact of the matter is, there is no shortage of Jewish manpower, fighting manpower and house-building manpower and food-producing manpower in Eretz Yisrael. And there is no shortage of baby-making, home-creating, viciously protective of hearth and home and children womanpower, either. There is only a shortage of will to mobilize it, indoctrinate it, arm it and throw it at the Israeli enemy and his Moslem allies.

And let us try another gedankenexperiment. Imagine if there were real settlements in Yosh. Imagine if there were an underground Jewish army willing to strike at the Israelis daily with rocket and mortar and sniper and, yes, with suicide bomb and poison gas. Imagine if every Israeli assault on the Jews of Yosh produced bloody chaos on the streets of Tel Aviv, if no high voltage transmission line could stand for more than a day, if the Israeli national water carrier were interrupted on a weekly basis, if every day an Israeli soldier spent in Yosh might be his last. Would there not be a peace process? Would the Israelis not seek accommodation with this terrible, vicious, unstoppable enemy? Would there not, at the end of such negotiations, emerge an orderly partition plan and an orderly IDF retreat? Would not Medinat Yehudah emerge on the scene not merely with a landscape of fortresses and an army of well trained light infantry, but with tanks and aircraft and artillery and SAM batteries and territorial integrity and free passage through Israeli territory for goods and volunteers from abroad as well?

And after it survives the trial by fire that is the birth of nations, would not Medinat Yehudah grow? Would the Israelis not scramble to hand it ever more territory, even if they have to provide actual aid in the form of strategic materials and weaponry? Would they not give the Golan to Medinat Yehudah? Would they not give the Arab-majority areas of the Galilee? Would they not use the mere THREAT of such a handover to cool the ardor of their ever growing and ever more raucous Arab minority? Would the day not come when the Israelis retreat to the Haifa-Tel Aviv coastal strip and, having handed every terrestrial border to Medinat Yehudah, sigh with happy relief?

Think carefully about this! The Israelis only want to be left alone so they can watch porn, do drugs and masturbate in peace. They are ALL Zohan Dvir. Whom do you think they would choose for a neighbor, if they were given a choice? Would they choose a Torani Jewish State that would honor any agreement and engage in profitable trade with them, or would they choose a Jihadi Islamic state that would honor no agreement and engage in endless bloody terrorism against them? I say to you that were the issue really on the table, Israel’s ruling elites would fall all over themselves to make Medinat Yehudah not only a reality, but an unavoidable, militarily and economically unshakeable reality!

The arguments of lemmings are fog and dust, my brothers and sisters. Everything they say is a lie. It is a small lie told to cover a big lie. And the big lie exists to cover a gigantic lie, a lie so enormous that only a blind man cannot see it for what it is.

There is no truth to the small lie that Medinat Yehudah is impossible. There is no truth to the big lie that the “settlers” of Yosh are settlers. And there is no truth to the biggest lie of all, the elephant in the room. There is no truth to the lie that Medinat Israel is a Jewish State, to the lie that a Jew can be an Israeli, to the lie that the IDF can ever be a Jewish army. There is no truth, in short, to the lie of Achdut. The real question before us, dear readers, is how long will we permit this gigantic lie to stand? Should we lie down and die because the Israeli State and its goyshe allies want us to? Or should we act to change the present reality?

6 Adar, 5769

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57 Responses to “The Arguments of Lemmings”

  1. Rob Says:

    I would like to help you, but as an anglo european I feel guilty and dirty for the horrible things I have done such as bringing civilization to the savages. I’m too stupid to realize that our cause is common. I’m too ashamed to admit if you go down, I’m next.

  2. Greg Cheslow Says:

    Interesting site, interesting ideas.

    I’ve noticed that much of your discussion revolves around the scenario of armed conflict between Jews and Israelis, and this Hanukkah redux may indeed come to pass. However, I was wondering if you could comment on the implications of another scenario:

    Israel decides to withdraw from Judea and Samaria, but insists that it is simply impossible to dismantle and evacuate entire cities (such as Ariel). Furthermore, a hefty number of Jews express love of Eretz Yisrael over Medinat Yisrael and demand to remain. The Palestinian Authority agrees (with plenty of reservation, of course) that those Jews remaining will become citizens of the nascent Palestine.

    In my estimation, this course of events provides a few possible advantages.

    1a) Minimal or perhaps no confrontation between Jews and Israelis. You’ve expressed plenty of disdain for the Hebrew-speaking goyim, but you also acknowledge that killing them is a necessary evil to be avoided if possible. They’re certainly not B’nei Amalek.

    1b) Without the problem of Jews killing Israelis, there will be a larger pool of Israeli support on which to draw when the Maccabees finally do battle with the Mujahideen. As I’m sure you will acknowledge, there are plenty of zealous Jews in Israel who consider Jews killing Jews as inexcusable no matter what. It would be harder to count on support (ideological and monetary) and equipment from these Jews if they have terrible memories of Jew-on-Jew violence.

    2) It’s fair to assume that what happened in Gaza will again transpire in Judea and Samaria. That is, Hamas will gain popular support, confront the corrupt Fatah, and assume significant political power. Hamas, of course, would be exceptionally suspicious of and antagonistic to Jews living in their country and would most likely take measures to dhimmify and persecute them. Two advantages here:

    2a) You emphasize the need for Jews to cut off their dependence on the security Israeli soldiers-turned-policemen provide and become proactive in building fortresses. Well, necessity is the mother of invention. Faced with a serious threat, the Jews will be forced to invest in defensive measures. Without Israeli guards, those Jews wishing to remain in a Hamastan will have to learn individual and collective self-defense.

    2b) This corresponds to 1b. If people see a minority of oppressed Jews in Palestine defending themselves, they are more likely to be supportive. Of course, one’s ideology should not hinge on the perceptions and opinions of others, but you make mention of both foreign, non-Jewish volunteers and the war of symbols. We know the Palestinians benefit from their underdog status. The Jews may benefit from it, as well.

  3. Vienna Mike Says:

    Greg, you are arguing from ignorance. This is apparent from your idea of the PA agreeing to the Jews “remaining in Palestine”.

    The first thing you need to understand is that, despite the fairy-tales being spread about in the Western press, the PA controls nothing outside the Muqata. Hamas controls the Arab sectors of Yosh in all but name and appearance.

    Second, the PA is lead by a Holocaust-denying Nazi. This man LITERALLY wrote a graduate dissertation denying the Holocaust. Need I say more about his true nature, plans and sympathies?

    Third, Islam prescribes the extermination of the Jewish People as the sole means of achieving the kingdom of Allah on Earth. According to Islam, the final redemption CANNOT come until the Jews are exterminated. According to the Koran, the Jews are the worst and most evil of people. No Moslem is permitted to make friends with Jews and it is the obligation of Moslems to attack the Jews wherever and whenever Jews can be found. Furthermore, the Koran denies that Jews are even human. In no less than three places in the Koran, the Jews are referred to as the descendants of pigs and monkeys. According to Islam, the Koran is the literal word of Allah, perfect and uncreated. There are neither allegories nor allusions in the Koran. Among the many arguments used by Moslems against Western science is the argument that, since Western biology does not distinguish between Jews and “real human beings” as the Koran does, the entire science must be invalid. This is why Nazi racial theory is so popular in the Moslem world. Nazism fits perfectly with the Islamic point of view. Nazi “racial science” can be accepted by Moslems as real science, while Western biology cannot be.

    Now that we have established what the Moslems are and what they believe, let’s talk about numbers. The PA “police” have approximately 60,000 men under arms. These are poorly disciplined and ill-trained light infantry, but they are better than what the Jews of Yosh can field under the current circumstances. For all intents and purposes, these troops are under the control of Hamas. There are political nuances to this statement, but these would be immaterial when it comes to an effort to exterminate the Jewish population of Yosh. These men will come to the fight immediately and they will come with the full assortment of light infantry weapons and with armored vehicles, both homemade and purpose-built. In addition to this, the real Hamas armed forces in Yosh outnumber the PA “police” at least three to one, if not more. They are better trained, better motivated and better armed. These men would also turn out immediately upon any IDF withdrawal. Let’s assume, conservatively, that they number 180,000 light infantry. So, ON THE DAY THE IDF WITHDRAWS, the Jews of Yosh must confront and defeat roughly 240,000 enemy troops. That is TEN INFANTRY DIVISIONS, reinforced, conservatively, with at least one battalion of light armor.

    In addition to this, the “Palestinian” squatters can call on the remainder of their unmobilized manpower. These men number roughly 460,000. While essentially untrained, they all possess arms at home and can be formed into a regionally-organized vokssturm within a week.

    Did I mention that an independent Palestinian State could purchase arms and armored vehicles at will? Within less than 24 hours of any IDF withdrawal, the first T-55s, T-72s, MTLBs, BMPs and howitzers will begin arriving from Syria. Even assuming that the Israelis do not permit an outright deployment of Syrian or Egyptian troops in Yosh, we can expect the formation of the first true Palestinian heavy armored battalion by the end of week 1 of the conflict. The first Palestinian armored division will be formed by the end of the same month.

    NOW do you comprehend what is really going on? Yes, the Israelis are preparing to precipitously withdraw the IDF. They are counting that the “settlers” of Yosh will run back into Israel where they can be put into “refugee camps” and forced to starve or give up Torah as the Sephardim were in the 1950s. The Israelis also expect that a small minority of the most hard-core “settlers”, such as the population of Yitshar, Itamar and Tapuach, will choose to stay and be massacred. The Israelis are eagerly anticipating such a massacre.

    While all of these things are plain for any but the blind to see, the Jews of Yosh have taken no action whatsoever to prepare for the defense of their so-called “settlements”. When the IDF is withdrawn, these people will have nothing but pistols and a few rifles, barely any ammunition, no supplies and no defenses with which to defend against TEN DIVISIONS of enemy troops possessing the full assortment of infantry weapons as well as armor and artillery. Nor will the “Palestinians” suffer from any shortage of munitions or supplies. Unless the Jews take action RIGHT NOW to correct the situation as it stands, they will all be massacred on the very first day the IDF withdraws.

    A country cannot be built in a day. It takes years to build one. No one can tell how much time the Jews of Yosh really have, but the clock is ticking.

  4. Greg Cheslow Says:

    Lots to respond to here. As I said, much of what you say is interesting, though I happen to think that much of what you say is also grossly exaggerated. Your military knowledge seems to be massive and impressive, but there is room for improvement in your understanding of Islam and geopolitics in general.

    That aside, please clarify how you think it is possible for the Jews of Yosh to mount a resistance against both the Israelis and the Arabs, but not just the Arabs. All this talk about the Arabs attacking the Jews on the very first day is exaggerated, I think. I do happen to think that the PA is fickle and will cave eventually, but it will not happen immediately. There will be a gradual schism, as was seen in Gaza. But still, it seems highly preferable for the Jews to fight the Arabs with the widespread support of Israelis and a portion of international onlookers who always fetishize the underdog, rather than to launch a guerilla campaign against Israel and the Arabs at the same time, thus simultaneously draining a potentially massive pool of support among Israeli religious citizens and providing the Arabs a hefty advantage by creating a two-front war. And then of course there are the issues of halacha (Jews fighting Jews) and military discipline (Jews are much more likely to invest in self-defense as a minority in a highly volatile future state of Palestine).

    There is much wisdom in what you speak of on this blog, but I think it can be refined. Palestine will be be propped up by the international community as a democracy. As was the case with Oslo, money will be invested on the condition that the PA spends it on democratic institutions (even if this will inevitably fail, as we know it will). A fetishized feature of democracy is ethnic and cultural pluralism. The PA will need to accept that there will be a minority of Jews in their country in order to prove their commitment to democracy, especially because Israel hosts Arab citizens and there is no good argument for making Judea and Samaria judenrein.

    Jews can assist in this outcome by focusing on sanctity of the land and not professing any political/national aspirations. Jews need not express love of Palestine, just as Arabs do not express love of Israel; they just need to present themselves as pious Jews who wish to pray three times per day and tend to their goat farms. “Just leave us alone.”

    Yes, the division will eventually come. The power vacuum will follow. Hamas will eventually topple Fatah. It is during this time that the Jews will need to rally together, dig in, and seek the support of sympathetic Israelis and foreigners.

    You might call this far-fetched. You might take offense at my calling you naive with respect to Islam and politics, but I do think one ought to at least consider these chain of events as far preferable to your two-front, religiously controversial, politically unrealistic, guerilla war.

    All that said, much respect.

  5. Vienna Mike Says:

    First of all, Greg, it is your understanding of Islam that is flawed. I suggest you begin your self-education by reading this book: http://www.amazon.com/Islam-Jews-Unfinished-Mark-Gabriel/dp/0884199568/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236633345&sr=1-1

    Second, regarding your other contention that since the Jews of Yosh cannot fight the Moslems without making proper preparations, they therefore cannot fight the Israelis, I suggest that you carefully read the summary lesson plan for Self-Liberation 101. In brief, if I walk into a gym and try to fight 40 bodybuilders with my fists, I will get pounded into the ground. If I walk into the same gym with a gun, I can shoot these same 40 bodybuilders without breaking a sweat. When you bring the right tool for the job and make the right preparations, you win.

    The Jews cannot fight a civil war with the State of Israel. What the Jews CAN do is launch a doctrinally correct armed struggle for independence, beginning with a war of symbols, force the Israelis to the negotiating table and ultimately create an orderly partition between Medinat Israel and Medinat Yehudah.

    Vienna Mike does not advocate, for example, that Jews go mow down random chilonim on the streets of Tel Aviv. What Vienna Mike DOES advocate is that the Jews symbolically reject the Israelis and their State at every opportunity, force the Israelis to vacate Jewish cities and towns, build their own country and THEN negotiate for partition.

    In this environment, the Jews would NOT randomly shoot Israelis on the street. Rather, they would direct the sword of retribution at Bnei Amalek and those who aid them. As the IDF runs back and forth to restore power to Ramallah and Jenin, what will that look like to the Israeli public? Remember that there is a great reservoir of hate for the Arabs among the average Israeli and there is a great reservoir of hatred for the elite among the lower classes as well. Israel is a deeply divided society. A guerrilla force that exploits these divisions can turn the Israelis in on themselves.

    If in response to an expulsion or a house demolition, a couple of young men on a motorcycle cut off the car of a military officer who gave the orders and kill everyone inside, what will the average Israeli think? Consider this carefully. When there is a price for every action, those taking the action will always consider the price. Also, if the Jewish drive for independence looks viable and serious, a substantial portion of Israel’s ruling elite will actually turn about and aid it, both covertly and overtly.

    What Vienna Mike proposes is a three-pronged assault on the enemy’s WILL. A non-violent political party would agitate for secession. A majority of Jews would engage in nation-building and the War of Symbols, rendering Yosh self-sufficient and self-governing. A minority of determined young men and women would form Marighella cells and create an atmosphere of chaos and terror among those sectors of Israel’s ruling elite that oppose Jewish sovereignty. In response to this combined assault, the Israeli enemy will crumble and Jewish independence will be achieved with a minimum of bloodshed on both sides.

    The technical challenge is great, as the IDF does prevent the Moslems from massing their forces against the Jewish communities of Yosh and it prevents the regular armies of the Arab states from entering Yosh as well. Therefore a fine line has to be walked between ejecting the IDF and tolerating the IDF until Jewish self-defense forces are ready to take complete control. For this reason, it will be necessary to achieve repeated “understandings” with the IDF. Such “understandings” have been achieved in the past. For example, the IDF does not enter Yitzhar proper due to an “understanding” achieved via repeated anti-IDF riots.

    I believe that the national liberation struggle to establish Medinat Yehudah would be the most technically difficult national liberation struggle ever conducted. I also believe that there is no choice whatsoever and that Hashem will aid the Jews who try.

    Now, regarding the Moslem forces in Yosh. To date, almost no Palestinian armed force has demonstrated the capacity to conduct operations above squad level. For the most part, they cannot fight as platoons, much less as companies and battalions. They have all the typical problems of an ill-trained armed force. They have problems with organizing logistics, with synchronizing operations, with combining fire and maneuver, etc, etc. They can be defeated by a well-trained smaller force, despite their weight of numbers. They can also be deterred by formidable defenses. Do not think for a moment that, just because the Jews of Yosh cannot defeat them today, they cannot be defeated tomorrow. The key point is that the Jews of Yosh must ensure that they possess the necessary wherewithal to win the battle on the day the IDF is precipitously withdrawn.

  6. Greg Cheslow Says:

    I’ve read Mark Gabriel and I’ve read Andrew Bostom (http://www.amazon.com/Legacy-Islamic-Antisemitism-Sacred-History/dp/1591025540/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236641652&sr=8-1).

    I am not claiming that Islamic antisemitism doesn’t exist historically and theologically. I am, however, arguing against your completely oversimplified claim that “No Moslem is permitted to make friends with Jews and it is the obligation of Moslems to attack the Jews wherever and whenever Jews can be found.” If this principle were as clear-cut and obvious as, say, the prohibition of fermented beverages in Islam, then we would see consistent Islamic persecution of Jews throughout history. Yes, the Jews suffered persecution under Tamerlane, the Almohads, and many other Islamic regimes, and for this reason it is certainly absurd to claim that a beautiful history of uninterrupted Islamic benevolence was suddenly ended by Zionism. The Rambam’s Epistle to Yemen demonstrates pretty clearly that Muslims persecuted Jews. However, we should not forget that Jewish civilization also often flourished under Islamic rule. Many Jews fled the Christian countries of Europe to settle in the Ottoman provinces, where they were often allowed religious, political and commercial freedom…and were certainly not murdered en masse because of Islamic religious obligation. There are plenty of other examples.

    Furthermore, it is Fatah that will be chosen by the international community to raise Palestine in the West Bank, and Fatah is considerably more secular than Hamas is. So, again, we won’t be seeing pogroms on the very first day. Even Arafat suggested that Jews choosing to remain should be granted Palestinian citizenship. When Hamas takes over, your characterization of Islam (a valid though not overarching one) will become much more relevant.

    Your summary lesson plan has large parts that are rather unconvincing to me. It is bizarre that you’re so quick to claim that the entire Arab World would wage war on the Jews of Yosh on the very first day of Palestinian independence, but that they would sit back idly and watch with passive amusement a Jewish national liberation movement aimed at establishing Jewish sovereignty in land claimed by the Arabs. Especially as someone who’s made the claim that the Israeli elite have forged an alliance with the Moslems, don’t you think it’s unlikely that the Moslems would not intervene to help uproot and terminate this threatening Jewish guerilla force, especially if it shows signs of success?

    “The Jews cannot fight a civil war with the State of Israel.”

    What you’ve described is a civil war, my friend. You’ve perhaps lost touch with…

    a) how many hilonim there are in Israel.

    b) how much contempt these hilonim have for the religious Jews of Yosh.

    You might claim that their contempt does not compensate for their loose principles. You might claim that they will be easily defeated because they just don’t care enough to maintain a protracted war with the Maccabees. You might be right. Don’t think, however, that Hamas and Islamic Jihad have loose principles. Furthermore, don’t think they won’t get involved if they see the Maccabees achieving success.

    My argument: Take as a given the struggle between the Maccabees and the Mujahideen. Don’t shoot yourself in the foot by…

    a) alienating yourself from the Israeli support that will be so crucial during this struggle.

    b) providing the Mujahideen an advantage by inviting two fronts, thus diluting your movement’s potency.

    “As the IDF runs back and forth to restore power to Ramallah and Jenin, what will that look like to the Israeli public?”

    Again, you underestimate the number of hilonim and their attitude. Remember how eager Israelis were to condemn Sabra and Schatilla even though it was the Phalangist who pulled the trigger. The average Israeli, while exhausted and suspicious of Arabs, wants the conflict over and will see this campaign as obnoxious and jeopardizing. I am fully confident that even a few assassinations of high-ranking IDF officers would curtail the future support this movement will need from the Israelis.

    Also, you’re evading. Your writings have made it pretty clear that it won’t be just a few IDF officers. One such example can be found in your entry “Like a Fire on Shabbat”:

    “If a Jewish resistance fighter plants a bomb in a posh treif restaurant in North Tel Aviv, let him not worry about any potential Jew who might be walking outside when the bomb goes off. This Jew would not be a victim of the resistance, but a victim of the Israelis who have sparked resistance by their murderous antisemitic policies. Perhaps his death would cause other Jews to stop frequenting Israeli neighborhoods. And if not, we are not liable.”

    Remember, you’ll need money from Tel Aviv when Hamas takes over Palestine. Also, my point about international sympathy remains unaddressed.

    “The key point is that the Jews of Yosh must ensure that they possess the necessary wherewithal to win the battle on the day the IDF is precipitously withdrawn.”

    I think it’s very good that you’ve said this. It evidences your understanding that the IDF will withdraw. We are not debating a static math problem. We are debating an issue that will evolve with time. I might need to change my views and opinions if the Jews of Yosh commence resistance tomorrow. By the same token, you may need to consider my points if it becomes an increasingly popular stance among Jews in Judea and Samaria to remain in Judea and Samaria regardless of regime.

    I maintain that the latter is preferable.

  7. Daniel Says:

    Yes, Greg, to some extent I agree, but the latter is also extremely unlikely.
    Vienna Mike’s war of symbols seems to me to be a good idea regardless- Torah Jews should promote their own symbols and ignore (and indeed tear down) secular Israeli ones. Most Israelis won’t notice, the same was they don’t notice that most of us don’t bless the “first flower of redemption” in shul any more. They don’t have to notice- we have to notice. We have to create and strengthen an identity in Eretz Israel which is independent of Medinat Israel. That will be of value in any scenario.
    BTW, I don’t fault Vienna Mike for being impractical- I too have been in Vietnam, and if the Vietnamese can do it, believe me the Jews can do it. What we need is the will of the Vietnamese, which we don’t have.
    My problem with his approach is that the price is tremendous. If we win, it might be worth paying- I can see Vietnam becoming a major international player in the not-too-distant future. But with all the backstabbing and all the spoilt rich-boy lifestyles of many Jews in Israel, I just can’t see it happen at all.

  8. Greg Cheslow Says:

    Hi Daniel,

    Again, I don’t see how the latter is unlikely if Arafat himself argued for it. It’s simply impossible financially, politically, and socially to evacuate and dismantle entire cities. People think of settlements as if they’re small gatherings of tents. You know, of course, that Ariel has factories, entire neighborhoods, and a well-attended college bordering on a university. Have you not sensed the despair over the death of the two-state solution? Both the Israelis and Palestinians know it: If Palestine comes into existence, there will be Jewish Palestinians. Now, perhaps Lieberman’s plan of simply redrawing the borders will be put into practice, thus maintaining Israeli sovereignty over many of the settlements, and that’s another issue. Either way, this conflict is not ending with any two-state solution. That much is obvious. However, if your desire is a state of Judea, then establishing a quiet fifth column in Palestine is the best way to go.

    I never took issue with Vienna Mike’s War of Symbols. Indeed, I think this is important. You’ll notice in my second response I say the following:

    “Jews can assist in this outcome by focusing on sanctity of the land and not professing any political/national aspirations. Jews need not express love of Palestine, just as Arabs do not express love of Israel; they just need to present themselves as pious Jews who wish to pray three times per day and tend to their goat farms. ‘Just leave us alone.'”

    I basically agree with you. Jews in Judea and Samaria need to make it clear that they’re no longer agents of Medinat Yisrael (in part because they really are not and in part because this will make it easier for the Palestinians to grant them citizenship). They need to forge a new identity, but without a flag or any other nationalist trappings. In short, the national/political movement needs to go dormant for now until the time is right.

    And the time will come. Even if Hamas doesn’t take over, one can count on the tried and true process of society’s descent into antisemitic paranoia. Even if Palestine becomes a relatively secular, civilized society, there will no doubt be a natural dislike for those Hebrew-speaking Palestinians who, through their industry and diligence, control a disproportionate amount of the national wealth and refuse to assimilate. They’re not even inclined to hire Arabs and share the wealth! Bastards!

    It is simply inevitable. History has demonstrated that time and time again. Taking that as a given, the issue is how to prepare for it in such a way as to maximize advantages.

    I think your Vietnam comparison is a bit strained, but I’ve addressed the more salient point.

  9. Vienna Mike Says:

    Greg, your presence on this site is very welcome, as you share all the stereotypical misconceptions that afflict Anglophone Jews. Your comments give me a chance to dispel these misconceptions in a more user-friendly manner than is possible with a simple blog entry. The misconceptions present in your latest entries are:

    • You misunderstand the nature of Shariah, the concept of the Dhimmah and the Shariah consequences thereof in out times. This leads you into a fundamental misunderstanding of Islam and Moslems, a misreading of Islamic history and an erroneous projection of future Islamic actions.

    • You misunderstand the nature of Fatah as a modern organization, conflating it with the propaganda image projected by the PLO in the 1970s.
    • You conflate civil war and armed struggle, two completely different, even polar opposite, concepts.

    • You believe that the State of Israel is a democracy. Form this flow two misconceptions. The first is that the Israeli press correctly expresses Israeli public opinion. The second is that Israeli public opinion has any bearing on the actions of Israel’s ruling elite.

    • You believe that it is better to be loved than to be feared. From this flow misconceptions regarding the nature and behavior of both the Israeli chilonim and the Israeli ruling elite, as well as the modes whereby this behavior can be profitably altered.

    • You believe that the attitude of the goyim toward the Jews and the attitude of the chilonim toward the datim are rational products of a rational mental process. From this flows the misconception that these attitudes are fundamentally alterable.

    • You conflate target discrimination with restraint, when in reality these are two completely unrelated concepts.

    • You believe that in order for two sides to cooperate, they must be linked by a formal alliance of some kind. From this flows the erroneous belief that Islamic resistance to the expansion of Jewish sovereignty under Israeli occupation possesses the same means as would a sovereign Islamic state

    • You believe that the ultimate objective of any Jewish struggle to separate from the Israelis is repentance by the Israelis and a reunification. This causes you to discard the doctrinally correct view of armed struggle.

    As I have limited time, I will address these misconceptions in a series of replies over several days.

  10. Greg Cheslow Says:

    Looking forward to it.

    In between your replies, could you please just indulge me and let me know what you think should happen in the following scenarios? You can continue arguing for the paradigm you’re proposing now, but again, we’re not discussing a math problem here. Current events will become past. Future events will become current. I want to know how your platform might evolve.

    1) Israel withdraws from Judea and Samaria. The resistance you call for simply doesn’t happen. The Jews end up not having the stomach for it. A sizeable community of Jews remain in Palestine, having been forced to renounce their Israeli citizenship and adopt Palestinian citizenship. Settlements remain intact. What now?

    2) Israel withdraws from Judea and Samaria, taking most of the settlers with it (Gush Katif revisited). Most Jews in Yosh are relocated to Israel proper. Some settlement blocs remain. (We shall assume in this scenario that the nascent Palestine is engulfed by Hamas agitators relatively quickly. How should the Jews capitalize on rockets flying into Tel Aviv skyscrapers?)

    3) Borders are largely redrawn. Vast majority of settlements remain intact and become part of Israel proper. This allows the Jews of Yosh to retain their relative separateness. Again…Hamas eventually gains influence in Palestine. Or do the Jews even wait for that?

    A quick response to your claim that I think it is better to be loved than to be feared. That depends on the circumstances. But again, one’s ideology should not hinge on it. However, this is a factor people need to consider in the age of the image, the age of economic sanctions and academic boycotts. If you’re looking for equipment and manpower from Israel (and money from the dissipating Jewish diaspora), you better know how to invest in some serious PR. Ironically, you’ve laid the framework in many of your blogs for a revolutionary image campaign without even realizing it. I might bring this up in future exchanges if your views prove at all malleable.

  11. Greg Cheslow Says:

    Quick clarification:

    In scenario 2 I say “some settlement blocs remain.” I should make clear that these fall under Israeli sovereignty, not Palestinian. Furthermore, any Jewish communities that are made part of Palestine in this scenario are relatively docile. Think Menachem Froman from Tekoa (though Gush Etzion will undoubtedly be one of those settlement blocs incorporated into Israel proper).

  12. Vienna Mike Says:

    First, let’s take Islam, Shariah and the Dhimma.
    You argue that Jews had, at least occasionally, “freedom” and “prosperity” under Islam. You believe, therefore, that it is possible to create an arrangement for “freedom” and “prosperity” again, under some set of conditions. The reality is, Jews never had either freedom or prosperity under Islam. Their lives were rarely better than the lives of Jews under Christian rule. However, there is a difference in the historical record left by Jews living under Christianity vs Jews living under Islam. The reason for this is the nature of Islam itself. Whereas Christianity is merely a bunch of hokum created by a bunch of unscrupulous Jews who wanted to clean out gullible Greeks and Romans, Islam rests on a true supernatural revelation.

    Hashem has so created the world that for everything in the universe, there is an opposite. For every particle there is an antiparticle. For every action, there must be an equal and opposite reaction. Therefore it is no surprise at all that when the Holy Torah was given to the holiest nation on Earth via the best human being who ever lived, a Satanic anti-Torah had to be given to the most unholy nation on Earth, via the worst human being who ever lived. Because Islam is the Satanic opposite of Judaism, its structure mimics the structure of Judaism. The Koran is the anti-Torah, the Hadith is the anti-Mishna, Sharia is the anti-Halacha and the early Ulema are the anti-Sages. Once you understand this concept, you can rationally examine Islam using the same methods you learned when you studied the Talmud. This will cure your misunderstanding of Islamic history.

    Let’s take, for example, the Dhimma. The Dhimma under Sharia is a formal agreement of “protection” granted to non-Moslems. The nature and authority to extend the Dhimma derives largely from the verse:

    “Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the Religion of Truth among the people of the Scripture, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

    The Ulema explain as follows:

    “Fight against those who believe not in Allah…” – it is the collective duty of the umma to wage jihad against the unbelievers, strike terror into them and slaughter them and conquer them at all times when the umma is strong enough to do so. If the unbelievers invade lands once held by Islam, the duty to wage jihad becomes an individual obligation upon every Moslem man, woman and child until such time as the unbelievers are expelled, killed or submit to Islam. Those who cannot fight must provide financial support. Those who cannot provide financial support, must aid with propaganda. Those who cannot aid with propaganda must provide moral support to the mujahidin.

    “…nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger…” – the unbelievers who wish safety from jihad must submit to Sharia within their communities. They must surrender their arms, end all practices forbidden by Islam and obey all the dictates of the Moslems. They may not raise a hand, nor a voice against a Moslem, nor may they defend their property if a Moslem chooses to take it. Rather, they can only beg for mercy and appeal to the protection of a Moslem patron. Their testimony is not accepted in court against a Moslem, nor may they place themselves higher than the lowest of the Moslems. If they refuse any aspect of Sharia, even in the smallest detail, their lives are forfeit.

    “…and those who acknowledge not the Religion of Truth among the people of the Scripture…” – the unbelievers must publicly acknowledge the inferiority and falsehood of their beliefs and the primacy of Islam. The unbelievers must praise the justice and peace of Islam and the benefits Islam brings them. If they fail to do so in the smallest detail, their lives are forfeit.

    “…until they pay…” – the unbelievers must surrender things of value to the Moslems. The Moslems may take their gold and silver, their garments, their property, their land and houses. If the unbelievers have none of these things to pay with, then the children of the unbelievers should be taken as slaves. If the children of the unbelievers have been taken and they must pay more, then the unbelievers themselves must be taken as slaves. It is not acceptable to allow the unbelievers to substitute labor service for things of value, nor is it acceptable to allow them to accumulate a debt, for it says “pay”.

    “…the Jizya…” – a ruinous tax imposed to impoverish and demean the unbelievers until they are rendered penniless, landless and childless, so that their inferior and wretched status may remind the Moslems of the superiority of Islam and in order to induce the unbelievers to convert to Islam. It is not permissible to make the tax easy to pay, rather it must be ruinous.

    “…with willing submission…” – the unbelievers must assemble and pay the tax when called upon to do so, regardless of how often the Moslems collect it. Every unbeliever must come in person to submit himself to the protection of Islam. The tax must be collected with the maximum brutality and degradation for the unbelievers, in order to emphasize their inferiority, their wretchedness and the magnanimity of the Moslems in accepting the submission of the unbelievers. It is preferable for the Moslem who collects the tax to make the unbelievers crawl and grovel, to beat the unbelievers and force the unbelievers kiss his shoes, for these are the signs of submission. If the unbelievers fail to assemble, delay in paying the tax or fail to act with the proper submission, their lives are forfeit.

    “…and feel themselves subdued” – After they have paid the tax, the unbelievers must feel their inferiority. They must praise the Moslems for temporarily sparing their worthless lives in exchange for payment. They must extol the justice and fairness of Islam. It is preferable to strike each unbeliever a strong blow, causing him to fall upon the ground and injuring him, so that he feels the pain of his injuries for many days, for in this manner slaves are made to feel subdued.

    THIS is life under Islamic rule. You will note that, just like the prisoners of Stalin’s USSR were made to extol the Great Leader even as he starved, tortured and murdered them by the millions, the non-Moslem prisoners of Islam are made to extol the justice, security and prosperity of Islam even as Islam deprives them of any security, robs them of all prosperity and takes away any semblance of justice. For this reason, though the wretched condition of Jews under Islam is amply described by Western travelers who passed through Islamic lands, you will find few Jewish sources that describe the full horror of living under Islamic domination. Just as one who wrote even a tiny criticism of Stalin in a hidden diary was risking torture and death for himself and his entire family, one who wrote the smallest criticism of Islam was risking the destruction of his entire community.

    You will note that the Dhimma is a COLLECTIVE contract. This means that ENTIRE COMMUNITIES are wiped out when a single member commits the smallest transgression. After generations of such terror, the dhimmi communities become self-policing. They internalize their inferiority and praise of their Islamic masters becomes such a reflex that even if they are freed, they will often go on to praise and fear the Moslems from the safety of the West. They will even raise their children to praise the “justice” of Islam. You can see this effect, for example, with many Copts and Assyrians who have managed to escape to the United States.

    Once you understand all of the above, it becomes obvious what “prosperity” under Islam really meant. Just as a farmer may fatten a calf for slaughter, so would the Moslems rulers occasionally allow a few Jews to accumulate some wealth so that these Jews could be robbed in the future. The robbery was inevitable and inescapable, for it was robbery prescribed by Islam. You can also understand why Jews escaping Christian persecution would not be slaughtered when they came to the lands of Islam. What use their slaughter when, since the Jews as a whole had accepted the Dhimma, they could be more profitably added to the herd of dhimmi slaves, always a shrinking resource. Since the Islamic obligation to finally exterminate the Jews applies only in the days when the Final Redemption draws near, it could be safely postponed in the Middle Ages or during the European Renaissance.

    Note also what happens to dhimmis when the dhimma is rejected by a small group. Westrners tend to see the genocide of the Armenians as an ethnic conflict. In reality, it was an action dictated by Islam. A small group of Armenians on the borders of the Ottoman Empire began to agitate for Armenian independence and dignity. This constituted a rejection of the dhimma made by the Armenians as a whole. Therefore, all Armenians everywhere in the empire had to be slaughtered for it.

    A very similar slaughter befell the Jews of the Middle East following the creation of the State of Israel. Those Jews who did not flee the Arab World fast enough were murdered or taken as slaves. Only in places where a local community was able to make a renewed submission to a powerful Moslem ruler who was able to protect them, such as in Iran, did any Jewish communities survive. Today, the Jews of the Holy Land have certainly rejected the dhimma, nor would they be inclined to accept it. Therefore, Islam dictates that they be slaughtered to the last man, woman and child.

    Note also that the entire Holy Land is defined as an Islamic waqf, since it was once ruled by Islam. Therefore, it is an individual obligation for every Moslem to wage jihad against all Jews, wherever Jews may be found, until the Holy Land is recaptured for Islam in its entirety.

    Given all of the above, what makes you think that the Moslems would not attack the Jewish communities of Yosh and slaughter every man, woman and child, IF THEY ARE ABLE TO DO SO? Today, they are prevented from doing so by the IDF. When the IDF is withdrawn, any Jews who are unable to defend themselves without the IDF THE MOMENT IT LEAVES would be slaughtered immediately, because it is the individual obligation of every Moslem in the Holy Land to slaughter them without mercy.

    While I am at it, let me address the misconception that Fatah would not act in accordance with Shariah because of the opprobrium of the world, or because Fatah is somehow “secular”. In the 1960s, when the Soviets would give free cash and guns to anyone who called himself “socialist”, it was prudent for those Moslems who wished to obtain resources for jihad against the Jews to appear “secular” and “socialist”. In reality, however, it was all a pose. Yassir Arafat (y”sh) was “secular” the way Ovadiah Yo$$$ef is “secular”. In other words, Arafat was willing to place his own pocketbook above the Koran the way $hade$ and Eliya$hiv are willing to put their pocketbook above Torah. Today however, the situation has changed drastically. Fatah is on the run and Hamas is ascendant, because Hamas is honest, relatively free of corruption and completely obedient to Shariah. In other words, Hamas is the Islamic analogue of the organization the dati leumi need to establish in order to ensure their survival. Given the tremendous pressure exerted by Hamas, Fatah has no choice but to obey the dictates of Shariah. Therefore, Fatah will certainly participate in an immediate attack on the Jews of Yosh. Fatah supporters are less committed than those of Hamas and will therefore break and run sooner if they encounter stiff opposition. Fatah supporters will certainly do their best to shoot Hamas supporters in the back and blame their deaths on the Jews if the opportunity presents itself. But none of this will prevent Fatah from participating in an immediate attack on the Jews, as dictated by Shariah. To do otherwise is to be labeled a “collaborator” and a “Zionist stooge”, thereby losing power.

    And do not imagine even for a moment that the goyshe world will do anything but cheer and applaud the slaughter of Jews. Esau hateth Jacob. This is a physical law, as unchangeable as gravity. It is so recorded in the Talmud. The goyim, as a collective, hate the Jewish People and want us all dead. They have always hated us and they will always hate us. There is no action we can take to stop them from hating us. There is no point in even trying. This is their nature. They cannot change it.

    Individual goyim may rise above their nature and small groups of goyim may be forced above their nature by diligent observance of the Noahide Laws, but the aggregate mass can only be made to fear the Jews enough to be deterred from attacking us, or bribed somehow into leaving us alone. It can never be made not to hate us.

    Sure, a few goyshe hypocrites will cry some crocodile tears about the “unfortunate fate” of the Jews of Yosh. But, they will quickly point out, the Jews had it coming. Those evil settlers were colonists and oppressors. They trampled and dehumanized the poor, innocent Palestinians for decades. It is perfectly understandable, the goyim will say, that the Palesitinans took their revenge on small pockets of Jewish settlers, just like the Africans took revenge on small pockets of white settlers during the decolonization of Africa.

    Once you discard your misconception that the goyim have some rational reason to hate us and that there is some action we can take to cause them not to hate us, your mind will clear and you will be set free. Once you are armed with this crucial understanding, you will see that only those actions which result in the goyim fearing Jewish power and coveting peaceful trade with the terrifying Jews can result in a lack of goyshe criticism and condemnation of any Jewish action.

    While we are on the subject of unalterable hate, let’s put to rest any notion that the chilonim can be made to love the datim by any means at all. As is stated in the Talmud, there is no hatred in the world greater than the hatred of the ignoramus for the ba’al Torah. The chilonim hate the datim more than they hate the Moslems. This will always be the case, even if it is profitable for the chilonim to ally with the datim. However, the chilonim can be forced to fear the datim more than they fear the Moslems. The chilonim will then leave the datim alone and may even ally with the datim, not out of love but out of fear. The average chiloni should view a Jewish Resistance the way he views the mafia – cross these people and they will kill you, your whole family and your dog. Cooperate with them and you will be rewarded. The same Jewish Resistance that demands the chiloni’s cooperation will keep his neighborhood free of roving Arab thugs, will provide to him a just and corruption-free court system, will keep Israeli government agents out of his neighborhood so he doesn’t have to worry about high taxes, paying for utilities or complying with Israeli building codes and so forth. It will even feed him and provide him with employment, if he is supportive of it. From such combination of fear and advantage will flow respect. Thus the poor Sephardic chiloni, who is the majority in Israel, will quickly see that he has much to gain if he cooperates with the Jewish Resistance. And he will do so. The reason he will do so is TARGET DISCRIMINATION.

    When I say that Marighella cells must create an atmosphere of chaos and terror among those who aid Amalek, I mean exactly what I say. An atmosphere of chaos and terror is not created by the killing of one or two army officers. The resistance must kill thousands – army officers who order pogroms, policemen who attempt to enforce Israeli “laws” against the Jews, judges who rule against the interests of the Jewish People, media personalities who attack the Jewish national liberation struggle via propaganda means, merchants who sell to Moslems, businessmen who employ Moslems, doctors who serve Moslem patients and, of course, the Moslems themselves. The resistance must not be overly concerned about the lives of bystanders who associate with the target.

    You will note that the Israeli targets on this list are numerous, but they are distinct from the majority of Israelis. The high-payoff targets who are the natural priority for any Marighella cell all share a certain set of characteristics. They are predominantly upper class or upper middle class, educated Ashkenazim. They concentrate in wealthy neighborhoods and turn up their noses at the poor chilonim who are the majority in Eretz Yisrael. All those “Moroccans” and “Iraqis” and “Russians” are not welcome in their circles except as waiters or taxi drivers or bellhops. And so the average chiloni will not see his family bleeding on the asphalt in the aftermath of some Resistance bombing. He will see a bunch of prissy, well-dressed upper class Ashkenazim whom he hates writhing on that blood-spattered asphalt. He will see the same people who turn their noses up at him scurrying about their neighborhoods like frightened rodents and trembling in fear at the thought that they might be next if they go for sushi at the expensive treif restaurant, while the poor chiloni fearlessly strolls through his neighborhood on the way to his favorite falafel joint. He will see it and he will laugh and he will think it as a form of poetic justice, none of his business.

    From this and the notes regarding Marighella resistance in the Self-Liberation 101 Summary Lesson Plan, you can see that the Marighella cells must be utterly ruthless and maximalist. Not only must they slaughter members of the elite, but they must do this in a manner that would make the Jews of Yosh look moderate when these demand Medinat Yehudah. The Marighella cells must operate not only out of the cities and towns of Yosh but PRIMARILY out of the cities and towns of Israel itself. Since members of such cells are Jewish warriors in enemy territory, they can rely on the ruling of the Rambam in Hilchot Melachim and eat unkosher foods, drink unkosher wine and act like goyim to maintain their cover. They must be elusive, unstoppable, merciless. And they must punish for specific crimes. They should never leave a leaflet at a bombing site that states something to the effect of “We want Medinat Yehudah”. Rather, they, as Shomrei Ivri, should leave a Writ of Execution, signed by a Beit Din Ivri which they themselves form, listing the specific crimes of the targets attacked. Thus, for example, a military officer shot in his car along with his wife and daughter while driving out to the beach will have a note pinned to his chest stating “By order of the Beit Din Ivri of such-and-such a region: So and so is found guilty of ordering the expulsion of Jews from such and such a place on such and such a date and sentenced to death. Execution carried out by Shomrei Ivri of such-and-such a brigade.” A destroyed high voltage power line might have a note pasted on a pylon stating “By order of the Beit Din Ivri of such-and-such a region: In retaliation for such-and-such Israeli action against such-and-such a Jewish town, the Israeli city of Tel Aviv is deprived of electric power. Action carried out by Shomrei Ivri of such-and-such a brigade.” Medinat Yehudah must never even be mentioned. Rather, Medinat Yehudah must present itself as the only way to empower “moderates” and end the reign of terror.

    It must also be clear to you from reading self-liberation 101 that the initial actions of the Marighella resistance will cause a massive wave of outrage and howling among Israel’s rulers. This outrage will translate into a brutal crackdown against the dati community. Hundreds will be murdered, thrown into prisons, beaten, raped and expelled from their homes. Whole Jewish communities will be bliderated. There will be curfews, armored patrols, soldiers in flak vests and tanks on the streets. Men wearing knotted kippot will be randomly assaulted on the streets. Wome wearing modest clothing will be attacked. The oppression will make Amona look like a picnic by comparison. This is a good thing. By brutally oppressing the entire dati leumi sector, Israel’s rulers will utterly alienate it. There are about 2 million dati leumi Jews in Israel. That’s 1/3 of the population. These Jews provide 66% of Israel’s combat arms soldiers and 33% of Israels’s company grade combat arms officers. Once this sector’s delusions regarding the Israeli State are shattered and it begins to disassociate from Israeli society en masse, they will wholeheartedly join the organized Jewish Resistance in Yosh. Israeli oppression will drive the growth of the resistance, feeding more violence and bringing more oppression until the Israelis despair of victory and seek instead to empower the “moderate” organized resistance of Yosh, that “only” wants Medinat Yehudah.

    Further, it will not be the love of the Jews that will cause Israel’s elite to enable and support the creation of Medinat Yehudah but rather FEAR. The Israeli elite will fear the Jewish Resistance more than anything else in the world. Their most terrible nightmare would be that Medinat Yehudah fails, for if it fails, the reign of terror they are saving themselves from by “empowering” the “moderates” who want Medinat Yehudah will resume and escalate and there will be no escape from it. Thus we come back to the mafia analogy on a grand scale, which is what armed struggle is all about. The rulers of Israel must see Medinat Yehudah as their only hope of survival and peace. When they do, they will give the Jews of Yosh everything the latter need with trembling hands and tearfully kiss the boots of the Jewish resistance fighters in gratitude for their deigning to accept it.

    This brings me to the difference between civil war and armed struggle. Civil war is what happens when two sides are approximately equal in strength. They form regular armies and engage in open warfare until one side wins. The conflict is conducted primarily on the physical plane, while the plane of will is subordinate. Armed struggle is a completely different animal. Armed struggle is conducted primarily on the plane of will. It is conducted when one side is so physically weak compared to the other that it cannot survive an open confrontation. Therefore, the weak side seeks to exhaust the will of the enemy by continued resistance coupled with symbolic actions. Thus I say to you that Vienna mike does not propose civil war, which is unwinnable, but rather armed struggle, which is winnable.

    There are only a few misconceptions remaining to address. They are:
    • Israel is a democracy.
    • The ultimate goal is Israeli repentance.
    • Enemies cannot cooperate / the Moslems can abort Jewish resistance

    I will address these at a later date.

  13. Rob Says:

    Hilchot Malichim, Is this at the descretion of the individual? could you please explain this further?

  14. Greg Cheslow Says:

    I guess I might as well start responding now, but it’s pretty clear to me that this discussion will not be productive. As such, if you could, please address the scenarios listed above. I am genuinely interested in your responses.

    I feel strange arguing from this side, as I am usually the one insisting in debates that Islam is NOT a misunderstood religion of peace. It’s weird arguing with someone whose alias commemorates that fateful 1683 confrontation between the Ottomans and the forces of Christendom, and who therefore knows that Islam is very easily expressed as a militant ideology.

    But again, your understanding and portrayal of Islam as a theology and civilization is fraught with error, and your cherry-picked verses don’t do much to help. You try to represent Islamic civilization as a monolith, when it really is and was not. The Moors were relatively tolerant; the Almohads were not. Tamerlane was a despot; Suleiman was pretty good. Can we expect Hamas to be closer to the Almohads than to the Moors? I’d count on it, and that was part of my “plan.”

    You do, however, make a pretty good point:

    “Today, the Jews of the Holy Land have certainly rejected the dhimma, nor would they be inclined to accept it. Therefore, Islam dictates that they be slaughtered to the last man, woman and child.”

    It’s fair to claim that whatever benevolence Islam showed to Jews in the past resulted from Muslims’ collective perception of the Jews as a harmless (and often useful) minority. Attitudes have changed now that the Jews have gotten rowdy and carved out a chunk of land in the heart of Dar-al-Islam, essentially flipping the bird to the prospect of the glorious rebirth of the Ummah. Imran Hosein isn’t helping:

    http://eldib.wordpress.com/2009/02/07/an-islamic-view-of-gog-and-magog-in-the-modern-age-ten-major-signs-of-the-last-day-has-one-just-occurred/

    Islamic anti-Semitism has surged, but I maintain that it’s mostly because the Jews exercised self-determination, not because of a few virulent verses about pigs and apes and 70,000 misguided Jews from Isfahan. This is why I made clear that in order to accommodate the possibility of becoming Palestinian citizens, the Jews would have to organize a campaign of distancing from Israel. They would need to go dormant and express themselves as hurt by the canard of Zionism that’s turned on them. This would perhaps remind Muslims of the good old days of the submissive Jewish minority.

    בתחבולות תעשה לך מלחמה

    You of course know that “tachbulot” is often translated as deception.

    The fact that the international community would see no problem with a somewhat multicultural Palestine and the fact that Palestinian leaders have already expressed support for it both indicate that it’s doable.

    That said, is it likely? More likely than the resistance you describe, but still unlikely. I’ll admit that. This conflict will not end with the two-state solution, but I maintain that if the Jews wish to establish Medinat Yehudah, the best way is to inject themselves as a virus into Palestine.

    “It is perfectly understandable, the goyim will say, that the Palesitinans took their revenge on small pockets of Jewish settlers, just like the Africans took revenge on small pockets of white settlers during the decolonization of Africa.”

    On the point of the goy’s unalterable hate of the Jews, what can I do? You believe this is a cosmic pattern. Yes, anti-Semitism remains strong, but much of people’s hatred of the Israelis does come from how they perceive of the settlers especially:

    You must understand the mentality of the left-wing liberal. They are riddled with guilt and cling to the oppressed minority like it’s a teddy bear, no matter what. “Never mind that Palestinian society would have nothing to do with women’s rights, tolerance of homosexuals, and separation of religion and state…Free Palestine!”

    But let’s say you’re right…let’s say the goyim will never accept the Jews. You still need to deal with the fact that American Jews (whose financial support would be a huge boon for the armed struggle) are increasingly left-leaning. More and more of them view Israel as an embarrassment that can no longer be reconciled with their “progressive values.” Assimilation isn’t helping, either. The average American Jew is outdone by the average Israeli Arab in knowledge of Hebrew (and probably Judaism). It’s been observed on college campuses that the pro-Palestine crowd is a mix of all peoples. As for the pro-Israel crowd, it’s just an ethnic core of Jews, and it’s still hemorrhaging support. More and more Jews are advocating on the side of the Palestinians. And most Jews on campus are simply indifferent. They feel no connection. Everyone from Shmuel Rosner to Norman Finklestein have noticed the trend of American Jews becoming more left-wing, while Israeli Jews become more right-wing. If you want far-reaching support from the American Jewish diaspora, you best stimulate their sympathy. Right now, they’re on the side of http://www.btvshalom.org/. A Jewish analogue to Hamas isn’t going to win them over. Blowing up Ashkenazim at Tel Aviv sushi bars isn’t going to win them over.

    http://www.masada2000.org/list-A.html

    “While we are on the subject of unalterable hate, let’s put to rest any notion that the chilonim can be made to love the datim by any means at all.”

    As someone with plenty of secular friends and family in Israel, I can make the confident claim that secular Israelis despise the haredim, but not the dati leumi. Yes, the liberal secular Israeli sees the dati leumi as problematic because they’re supposedly a hindrance to peace with the Palestinians. They have to insist on holding onto Yosh. As far as lifestyle, however, there’s no beef. Yes, with the haredim it’s different, but my secular Israeli family has even expressed admiration for how the dati leumi perform in the IDF. You can’t say the same about the haredim, and they despise them for it. The chilonim can be made to sympathize with the dati leumi.

    “It must also be clear to you from reading self-liberation 101 that the initial actions of the Marighella resistance will cause a massive wave of outrage and howling among Israel’s rulers. This outrage will translate into a brutal crackdown against the dati community. Hundreds will be murdered, thrown into prisons, beaten, raped and expelled from their homes.”

    Right, because bulldozer attacks from Israeli Arabs and rockets from Gaza and suicide bombings from Jenin resulted in the indiscriminate destruction of Arab communities in Israel. First of all, you assume that the majority of the dati leumi will not make it absolutely clear (much like American Muslims after 9/11) that they do not support or endorse these attacks. There will be no indiscriminate crackdown.

    Again, we seem to be operating from different axioms. I do not expect progress in our discussion, but I hope you’ll respond to the scenarios I outlined in the previous post.

  15. Greg Cheslow Says:

    Oh, and I still look forward to your other replies.

  16. Greg Cheslow Says:

    Hmm…my other reply did not go through. Here it is again.

    I guess I might as well start responding now, but it’s pretty clear to me that this discussion will not be productive. As such, if you could, please address the scenarios listed above. I am genuinely interested in your responses.

    I feel strange arguing from this side, as I am usually the one insisting in debates that Islam is NOT a misunderstood religion of peace. It’s weird arguing with someone whose alias commemorates that fateful 1683 confrontation between the Ottomans and the forces of Christendom, and who therefore knows that Islam is very easily expressed as a militant ideology.

    But again, your understanding and portrayal of Islam as a theology and civilization is fraught with error, and your cherry-picked verses don’t do much to help. You try to represent Islamic civilization as a monolith, when it really is and was not. The Moors were relatively tolerant; the Almohads were not. Tamerlane was a despot; Suleiman was pretty good. Can we expect Hamas to be closer to the Almohads than to the Moors? I’d count on it, and that was part of my “plan.”

    You do, however, make a pretty good point:

    “Today, the Jews of the Holy Land have certainly rejected the dhimma, nor would they be inclined to accept it. Therefore, Islam dictates that they be slaughtered to the last man, woman and child.”

    It’s fair to claim that whatever benevolence Islam showed to Jews in the past resulted from Muslims’ collective perception of the Jews as a harmless (and often useful) minority. Attitudes have changed now that the Jews have gotten rowdy and carved out a chunk of land in the heart of Dar-al-Islam, essentially flipping the bird to the prospect of the glorious rebirth of the Ummah.

    Islamic anti-Semitism has surged, but I maintain that it’s mostly because the Jews exercised self-determination, not because of a few virulent verses about pigs and apes and 70,000 misguided Jews from Isfahan. This is why I made clear that in order to accommodate the possibility of becoming Palestinian citizens, the Jews would have to organize a campaign of distancing from Israel. They would need to go dormant and express themselves as hurt by the canard of Zionism. This would perhaps remind Muslims of the good old days of the submissive Jewish minority.

    בתחבולות תעשה לך מלחמה

    You of course know that “tachbulot” is often translated as deception.

    The fact that the international community would see no problem with a somewhat multicultural Palestine and the fact that Palestinian leaders have already expressed support for it both indicate that it’s doable.

    That said, is it likely? More likely than the resistance you describe, but still unlikely. I’ll admit that. This conflict will not end with the two-state solution, but I maintain that if the Jews wish to establish Medinat Yehudah, the best way is to inject themselves as a virus into Palestine.

    “It is perfectly understandable, the goyim will say, that the Palesitinans took their revenge on small pockets of Jewish settlers, just like the Africans took revenge on small pockets of white settlers during the decolonization of Africa.”

    On the point of the goy’s unalterable hate of the Jews, what can I do? You believe this is a cosmic pattern. Yes, anti-Semitism remains strong, but much of people’s hatred of the Israelis does come from how they perceive the settlers especially:

    You must understand the mentality of the left-wing liberal. They are riddled with guilt and cling to the oppressed minority like it’s a teddy bear, no matter what. “Never mind that Palestinian society would have nothing to do with women’s rights, tolerance of homosexuals, and separation of religion and state…Free Palestine!”

    But let’s say you’re right…let’s say the goyim will never accept the Jews. You still need to deal with the fact that American Jews (whose financial support would be a huge boon for the armed struggle) are increasingly left-leaning. More and more of them view Israel as an embarrassment that can no longer be reconciled. Assimilation isn’t helping, either. The average American Jew is outdone by the average Israeli Arab in knowledge of Hebrew (and probably Judaism). It’s been observed on college campuses that the pro-Palestine crowd is a mix of all peoples. As for the pro-Israel crowd, it’s just an ethnic core of Jews, and it’s still hemorrhaging support. More and more Jews are advocating on the side of the Palestinians. And most Jews on campus are simply indifferent. They feel no connection. Everyone from Shmuel Rosner to Norman Finklestein have noticed the trend of American Jews becoming more left-wing, while Israeli Jews become more right-wing. If you want far-reaching support from the American Jewish diaspora, you best stimulate their sympathy. Right now, they’re on the side of http://www.btvshalom.org/. A Jewish analogue to Hamas isn’t going to win them over. Blowing up Ashkenazim at sushi bars isn’t going to win them over.

    “While we are on the subject of unalterable hate, let’s put to rest any notion that the chilonim can be made to love the datim by any means at all.”

    As someone with plenty of secular friends and family in Israel, I can make the confident claim that secular Israelis despise the haredim, but not the dati leumi. Yes, the liberal secular Israeli sees the dati leumi as problematic because they’re supposedly a hindrance to peace with the Palestinians. They have to insist on holding onto Yosh. As far as lifestyle, however, there’s no beef. Yes, with the haredim it’s different, but my secular Israeli family has even expressed admiration for how the dati leumi perform in the IDF. You can’t say the same about the haredim, and they despise them for it. The chilonim can be made to sympathize with the dati leumi.

    “It must also be clear to you from reading self-liberation 101 that the initial actions of the Marighella resistance will cause a massive wave of outrage and howling among Israel’s rulers. This outrage will translate into a brutal crackdown against the dati community. Hundreds will be murdered, thrown into prisons, beaten, raped and expelled from their homes.”

    Right, because bulldozer attacks from Israeli Arabs and rockets from Gaza and suicide bombings from Jenin resulted in the indiscriminate destruction of Arab communities in Israel. First of all, you assume that the majority of the dati leumi will not make it absolutely clear (much like American Muslims after 9/11) that they do not support or endorse these attacks. There will be no indiscriminate crackdown.

    Again, we seem to be operating from different axioms. I do not expect progress in our discussion, but I hope you’ll respond to the scenarios I outlined in the previous post.

  17. Rob Says:

    Greg, here’s a link, http://samsonblinded.org/block/dr-baruch-goldstein-was-murdered-14-years-ago.htm, This might answer some of your questions, or at least shed some light on reality.

  18. Greg Cheslow Says:

    Rob,

    Two things.

    1) I do not see how this entry on Baruch Goldstein is relevant. Can you please clarify?

    2) The idea of Samson Blinded shedding light on any reality is foolish. I’ve read the entire book, and I force myself to follow the blog. The man speaks of using janissaries. Janissaries?! Are we living in the 16th century?? The 5% of the points that Shoher makes that are mildly good (mainly religious, not political) are outweighed by the 95% ridiculous, nonsensical absurdity.

    He praises Kahane, and then in the next blog expresses appreciation for Olmert. Did I miss something?

    He’s a racist, and that’s disgusting.

    I strongly urge you to think more critically about what you read.

  19. Rob Says:

    Greg, You obviously fail to understand the nature of the conflict. What part of” they murdered the kahane’s, they murdered baruch goldstein, they ethnically cleansed, Aza of Jew’s, they have made it illegal for a Jew to defend himself and his land, in HIS own land, do you not get?

    This blog, VMY, offers an alternative to sitting idly by, waiting for a miracle, or the foolishness of putting ones faith in the goyim who presently control the israeli state.

    If you think blind samson is a racist because it advocates a transfer of the arab population out of the holy land, then you are in the wrong place, and I strongly urge you study TORAH, and think more critically about what you read.

  20. Greg Cheslow Says:

    You might make the claim that the Israeli elite in office orchestrated Kahane’s assassination, but it’s a stretch to say the average Israeli secular type is this nefarious. They naively believe in land-for-peace. They want to be left alone so they can make their money and live their lives. They dislike the dati leumi only insofar as they view the dati leumi as a hindrance to that desire.

    Yes, this blog does offer an alternative, and there are some very good ideas presented here. I am simply suggesting an alternative context for these ideas.

    I don’t think Obadiah Shoher is racist because he advocates transfer of Arabs. I think he’s racist because he constantly expresses disdain for Ethiopian and Indian Jewry. To his credit, Vienna Mike understands that skin color and chromosomes are a weak foundation for Jewishness.

    Want some more evidence of his racism? Here:

    http://samsonblinded.org/blog/neanderthals-were-human.htm

    By the way, I posted a response to Vienna Mike’s latest post, but it’s still in moderation limbo. I’ll try posting it again soon if it doesn’t come through in the next day or two. Maybe there was an error.

  21. Rob Says:

    Greg, I agree with your first paragraph 100%. I was not advocating for blind samson. maybe there is some merit to your statement concerning racism. I also have some opinions concerning mostly the group from india. these opinions have nothing to do with skin color or chromisomes, and more to do with who instigated and advocated these people, eg, who financed and pushed strongly for them, and the questionable fast track conversion process. But this has no relevance to the discussion.

    I advocate a seperation between the dati and the israeli state. this is quite feasable provided the current bunch of bumbling morons do not bring about a second holocaust first.

  22. Greg Cheslow Says:

    The conversion process must be allowed to fluctuate according to circumstances. The sages note that when times are tough for the Jews, conversion should be easier. When times are easy, conversion should be harder. The rationale, of course, is that he who converts during troubling times obviously has no ulterior motive.

    My hope is that when the struggle for Judea begins, the conversion process for anyone interested will consist of a few quick lessons, a declaration, and then grabbing a rifle and getting in formation.

    Shoher also advocates the creation of a Judean state. I support this arrangement, as well. However, I think the armed struggle against the Israelis that Vienna Mike advocates is deeply flawed. There are safer, more efficient, more effective ways of going about it. Never mind, though, the time will come. Even if the Jews of Judea and Samaria are evacuated, this will not bring about a solution.

    Hamas will gain influence. There will be renewed conflict. The issue, then, will be how to go about re-taking the land in an intelligent way (not trying to conduct an impossible benign occupation). This is why I want to see Vienna Mike’s opinions on what should be done in various scenarios.

  23. Rob Says:

    Armed struggle has been proven to work. it seems to be working well for amelek against the state of Israel.

    I would love to hear your alternative/s to armed struggle, perhaps raising millions of dollars from the diaspora, and spending it on worthless TV adds, or orange ribbons, or bussing bodies to amona to become the victim of a kapo’s club to the head?

  24. Greg Cheslow Says:

    I have already outlined my ideas, but I’ll do it again. But first, let me address your point.

    The Palestinian armed struggle is insignificant. The reason it seems effective is that the Palestinians are suffering under an unjust occupation, and the world recognizes it. It stems from the founding misconception of Zionism: Arab self-respect can be bought off.

    Read some of the writings by Herzl and even Jhabotinsky…they all speak of this bizarre idea that Arabs will be so grateful for modern medicine and jobs, and they’d be happy to live under Jewish sovereignty. Ridiculous.

    As Shoher rightly points out, the Torah makes it clear:

    “But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then it shall come to pass that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.”

    Need secular validation? Read the following quote from Benny Morris, Israel’s famous left-wing historian:

    “But my feeling is that this place would be quieter and know less suffering if the matter had been resolved once and for all. If Ben-Gurion had carried out a large expulsion and cleansed the whole country – the whole Land of Israel, as far as the Jordan River. It may yet turn out that this was his fatal mistake. If he had carried out a full expulsion – rather than a partial one -he would have stabilized the State of Israel for generations.”

    The same idiocy informed the decision to settle Jews among Arabs in Judea and Samaria. The military leadership though it would be an “enlightened” and “benign” occupation. STUPID. You have three options when it comes to acquiring territory inhabited by people who want nothing to do with you:

    1) Allow the people to rule themselves. Stay out of their business.

    2) Drive them out.

    3) Give them completely equal rights (including citizenship) and try to make them like you. (This is unlikely in the case of the Arabs.)

    Israel tried to find the happy medium, and it is now paying the price with the immorality inherent in privileging certain people with citizenship and its benefits, while others do not enjoy the same privileges. The world (and many Israelis) recognizes that this is immoral and needs to end.

    ______

    My idea consists of taking back the underdog status from the Palestinians. I know that it is with contempt that proud Jews look at the issue of image management, but we live in an age in which this is crucial. The days of empire are drawing to a close (something to which Shoher is oblivious). Political globalization is in full swing. The international community and the economic/political power it holds must be taken into account. Moreover, if you’re considering the left-leaning American Jewish diaspora as a resource, then you better build a taste for PR.

    As you know, I think Jews in Yosh need to divorce themselves from Israel. No need to burn Israeli flags; just make it clear that Israel has betrayed the settlers, and they want nothing to do with the backstabber. Focus on the land–Eretz Yisrael. Abandon the vocalized political design and national aspirations. Go dormant. Make circumstances conducive as possible to slipping into Palestinian citizenship, then let the jealousy and contempt the goyim feel for Jewish diligence and scholarship work against the Arabs. Let them set their own trap.

    Now as for the image campaign…

    There’s no need for TV ads. All the Jews of Yosh need to do is be themselves. The liberal world thinks of religion, and they think of militant fundamentalists (Taliban) or militantly ignorant, antisocial bigots (the classic Christian conservative evangelical).

    The Jew of Yosh can introduce a new image of piety that is uniquely suited to Judaism (with its focus on land) and to the latest craze of the left (environmentalism), and that image can be augmented by the lifestyle Vienna Mike advocates…a sustainable lifestyle.

    All this talk about cisterns and French Bed agriculture and solar power is excellent. This is exactly what will win over international onlookers and especially American Jews. Israel is already branding itself as the silicon valley of sustainable technology:

    http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/05/renewable-energy-at-the-kibbutz/

    Using Vienna Mike’s ideas, the Jews can forge an identity as diligent, concerned global citizens…an attitude so distant from the conservative American Christian who looks to Alaska and chants “Drill Baby Drill!”

    Cover the settlements in gardens. Employ French Bed agriculture. Solar power all the way. Wind mills. Hell, live in geodesic domes while you’re at it:

    http://www.kibbutzlotan.com/creativeEcology/altBuilding/geodesicDomes.htm

    Brand yourselves as Jews who love Eretz Yisrael so much that you’re determined to treat the land with respect (and you should be determined to do so).

    The Jews of Yosh need to move from this:

    To something more like this:

    As you can see, there needn’t be any orchestrated television commercials. The Jews just need to be themselves: industrious, innovative, concerned, and successful.

    Now, why does Vienna Mike make these suggestions? Because he’s aware that the engine of a resistance must be efficient. French Bed agriculture is more effective at feeding a legion of Maccabees. So there’s the point!

    The sustainable agriculture and architecture that attracts wine tourists and National Geographic photographers (NatGeo has long had a fascination with the Holy Land) will be the same sustainable technology that can quickly be converted into the brutally efficient engine of an armed resistance when the Palestinians turn on the Jews. So you kill two birds with one stone, so to speak. On the one hand, you build the needed sympathy and take the moral high ground. On the other hand, you raise an efficient, spartan society.

    That’s the core of the image campaign. Sure, there are other components that deal more with communications, but the core is what’s important.

  25. Greg Cheslow Says:

    I just posted my reply. It’s waiting to be moderated.

  26. Vienna Mike Says:

    First of all, a reminder to my readers, once again. Those who live in Eretz Yisrael, especially in Yosh, and use their REAL e-mail addresses and REAL websites identifying their physical selves will have their comments DELETED by the moderator for their own protection. If you live in EY, kindly use a fake email, mask your IP and, in general, try to avoid giving the Israeli enemy an excuse to arrange an “accident” for you.

    Now, Greg, I apologize but the man who invented Vienna Mike has numerous things to deal with this week. Therefore, replies may be delayed.

    A few brief points:

    1)Not all Moslems are equally observant. Just because their religion tells them to do something, doesn’t mean they will always do it, same as anyone else. Trust me, this is a far better explanation for the differences in behavior between the Moors (pogrom once a decade) and the Almohads (extermination of all Jews). No contrived explanations are necessary

    2)I care far more about the support of Hashem than the support of assimilated American Jews. For every one of THEM who gives money to the cause of Medinat Yehudah, there will be ten Evangelical Christians. Why? Read your Nevi’im: “…And the people of Judah will come against Jerusalem…” Unlike addled Jews, the Christians know full well that there are TWO states in Eretz Yisrael in the End Times that claim the title “Jewish State”. Trust me, they will give money and they will come to fight to make Medinat Yehudah a reality. They may be wrong about what results from the End of Days, but they will work astutely to make the Prophecies come true. Frankly, they are better allies than the assimilated Woody Allens of America’s “mainstream” Jewry could ever be. Insofar as Jewish support in America, Vienna Mike counts on the Orthodox, the Kahanists and those who support the mitnakhalim already, not on those who today walk by “Israel Apartheid Week” posters without batting an eye. Anyone else is a bonus, not a prerequisite.

    3) To understand “Obadiah Shoher”, I suggest you read my earlier post: “What Zionism Wrought”. Alas, the Blind Samson loses a great deal in translation. The English version of what he writes is garbled to the point of near-incomprehensibility. The grace and power of the original Russian is completely lost. Is he a racist? Yes. He has to be. The only alternative for him is to reject nationalism and return to Judaism. He is too old to do that. His blog is a stream of consciousness rather than a coherent advocacy platform. It is used by an extremely busy man as a form of stress relief. He writes whatever comes into his head in the morning, not in support of a reasoned-out agenda. If he could say these things in the Knesset or even among all but a few closest friends, he would. But given who he is, he CAN’T. This having been said, most of what he writes is reasonable. Empires are always with us. Reality is real. Humans are human. The fads of “globalization” and all the rest of this nonsense will pass and crumble into dust, but the reality of Blut und Eisen will remain forever.

    4) As someone who has spent a very considerable time dealing with and living among Moslems, both Westernized and non-Westernized, I find your idea of Jews trying to be the underdog in a Moslem State to be ridiculous. Sorry, it just won’t work. The depth of hatred the average Moslem feels for the Jew makes it impossible. The Moslems will attack the moment the IDF leaves, with time spent only on organizing themselves. Given the Moslems’ typical chaos, that might take a few days or even a week or two, but not the years you imagine it to be. Hamas is among the most efficient Moslem groups. I expect them to be ready immediately, just like they were after Gush Katif.

    5) About your three scenarios, in brief:

    Scenario one would require a major alteration of reality. Barring a miracle, it will not happen. If it does, the Jews of Yosh will have at most about 2 weeks to get their defenses in order before a massed Arab attack.

    Scenario two is highly likely, except for the part about Jewish communities remaining in “Palestine”. In this scenario, the Jews must undertake the same armed struggle. The very first thing to do would be to form Marighella cells to take vengeance against the Moslems. The cells would slaughter Moslems in response to every rocket attack. They would also launch rockets at the enemy, thus giving the Resistance the reputation of the only entity in Israel willing to actually defend the Jews against the Arabs and to SHOOT BACK. At the same time, the dati leumi community would have to separate itself utterly from Israeli society and demand a return to Yosh. In the meantime, the community as a whole would probably have to move to the Galilee and attempt to establish the core of Medinat Yehudah there and then expand it into Yosh from the north by pushing in raiding teams and, eventually, engineering settlement detachments. The alternative to this is to simply attempt revolution, which actually becomes doable when Arab rockets are raining all over the country. The public will become so disillusioned with the ruling elite that it will be possible to rally huge numbers of chilonim in an attempt to overthrow the Israeli State in favor of a Jewish State.

    Scenario three only postpones the necessity of armed struggle. The main purpose of the “peace process” is to rid the Israeli State of its Jewish Problem. Since the starting point of your third scenario does little to advance the goals of Israel’s ruling elite, it is unlikely to occur. Should it in fact occur, the “peace process” will continue in order to destroy more dati leumi communities until it becomes scenario two or the dati leumi start fighting back, whichever comes first.

    6) The mass oppression against the Arab population already happened just prior to and during the First Intifada. It failed. The Palestinians are in late Stage Two guerilla warfare, on the cusp of a Stage Three transition. The mass oppressions Vienna Mike describes belong in Stage One and during the Stage Two transition.

    7)There are THREE archetypes of Resistance.

    The first is the politician in Beged Ivri who politely but firmly demands Jewish autonomy in Yosh and warns that continued Israeli oppression will inevitably result in bloodshed. When the bloodshed happens, he does not condemn the actions of Jews. He merely expresses “deep regret” and points out that the bloodshed results from Israeli oppression and injustice which drives “a few young people” to “acts of desperation”. On the other hand, he full-throatedly and immediately condemns any Israeli activity against the Jews, decrying it as oppression, injustice and “provocation” that “harms the prospects for peace and reconciliation”. In due course, this politician begins to advocate full independence for Medinat Yehudah.

    The second arcetype is the Marighella guerilla. He is invisible, faceles, merciless. He looks like the average Israeli goy, lives among Israelis, eats treif and goes to nightclubs. Except for the days and nights when he plants bombs, executes uniformed Israeli scum responsible for antisemitic atrocities, takes revenge against Moslems and so forth. He would arise as soon, if not sooner, than the politician. He would start his work by attacking the Moslems and the infrastructure that supplies them. He would branch out almost immediately into attacking hostile goyshe media persons and various “internationals” in order to maximize publicity. Some of these would be held hostage and made to confess their crimes on video before being executed in painful and horrifying ways. He would continue by attacking Israeli infrastructure in response to antisemitic atrocities committed by Israeli monsters and as punisment for Israelis’ aid to Moslems. Finally he would attack those who defend the Moslems and by taking revenge against Israeli uniformed scum, politicians, hostile media persons and various animals in Yesh Gvul, Gush Shalom, Yesh Din, etc. Above all else, his actions must be as spectacular as possible, highly disruptive and publicity-generating. He would practice good target discrimination, but this does not mean that he would show even a tinge of restraint or moderation. Those who attack him and unequivocally condemn him, even if they come from among dati misleaders, would pay in blood for every insult

    The third archetype is the Beged Ivri-clad settler who seeks to make his community utterly self-sufficient, throws rocks at Israeli kapos whenever he sees them, screams for atzmaut and demands to be left alone by the Israeli State to tend to his farm in peace. In due course, this settler becomes part of an organized resistance that eventually brings about Medinat Yehudah.

    Rob: I refer you to Rambam Hilchot Melachim. In brief, Jewish warriors engaged in milkhemet mizvah may eat treif and drink goyshe wines, even sacrifices to idols, if it is necessary in order to prosecute the mission. Even if kosher food is nearby but treif is immediately available, the warrior should eat treif rather than risk himself and waste time to obtain kosher food. The mission of milkhemet mizvah takes priority over every other mizvah, even Shabbos. Milkhemet mizvah arises in one of two ways. Either it is declared by the Jewish State, in which case it is a collective obligation of the State; or the Jewish People is attacked in Eretz Yisrael, in which case it is an individual obligation for which even the groom should go from his bedchamber and the bride from under the chupah.

    The latter situation is manifestly at hand. Any member of an undercover resistance cell fighting the Israeli enemy and/or the Moslem enemy may break any mizvah in order to prosecute milkhemet mizvah against the enemies of the Jewish people, except, arguably, for the three mizvot for which one is obligated to die rather than transgress. This last point, however, can be disputed. The holiness of milkhemet mizvah may even override the prohibition against murder, idolatry and adultery, though only in the most extreme circumstances are such actions permissible in order to prosecute the mission.

  27. Vienna Mike Says:

    One more point, Greg. Kindly examine the blog entry entitled “on propaganda” in order to understand propaganda. You posted links to video of silly Jewish kids looking like idiots on camera. I agree with you that this is not how Jews should look. These videos should never have been made. The reason they should never have been made is that the Jews should have seized the people who are free today to walk around Eretz Yisrael to make such videos, tortured them in various horrible ways limited only by the need to keep the victims capable of talking, forced them to confess their crimes on camera and then executed them in the most painful manner possible on live camera. THESE videos, with goyshe enemies begging for their lives, should be the only videos related to the “internationals” coming out of the Holy Land. When such vdieos are common on the internet, we will know that the Jewish People in the Holy Land are actually interested in defending their lives.

  28. Greg Cheslow Says:

    Your points are well taken, though disagreements remain.

    Thank you for addressing my scenarios. I think we may both agree that my plan (a fifth column of Palestinian Jews) and your plan (Jews fighting Israelis and breaking off to form MY) are both a lot less likely than scenario 2 (though I don’t consider scenario 3 as unlikely as you do).

    Though I maintain that the procedure I have outlined is best, I do expect a near-judenrein Palestinian state in the near future, at least an embryonic, provisional one. I anticipate that this embryo of a state will abort itself when Hamas wields its popular influence and the Jews respond.

    I still consider scenario 2 preferable to your platform. The international community will simply not tolerate a state that is born in terrorism (and without the moral justification that clouds Palestinian violence). You may say “to hell with them,” but how can one raise a state in full isolation from the international community? Will the Jews just herd goats for generations? Will they be a welfare case for Israel, which is already a welfare case in itself? The state will need avenues of trade. It will need to join treaty organizations. The citizens will crave prosperity. Their piety alone will not keep them still. Boro Park haredim and Teaneck modern orthodox Jews have plenty of piety, and plenty of them have no intention of taking up residence in the Holy Land.

    Violence has long been national afterbirth, but in this day and age the advance of nationalist troops must descend from a moral high ground.

    I think scenario 2 provides some of that high ground, though arguably not enough.

  29. Rob Says:

    Greg, regarding your point # 3, thanks for the laugh. A great way to start the work week!

  30. Greg Cheslow Says:

    Which point is that? Do you mean scenario #3? It’s basically just the Lieberman Plan.

  31. Rob Says:

    Excuse me Greg, option #3

  32. Greg Cheslow Says:

    Yeah, it’s the plan put forth by Avigdor Lieberman’s party. Funny or not, it’s on the table.

  33. Rob Says:

    Well it sounds like the SOS to me. Number two is the only clear option.

  34. Greg Cheslow Says:

    Number two is definitely the most likely, though the mainstream portrayal of scenario #2 involves holding onto those settlement blocs contiguous to Israel proper, such as Etzion and probably Maaleh Adumim. This would entail significantly less uprooting of settlers.

    I maintain that my original proposal (Palestinian Jews) is possible, even if unlikely. I still think Vienna Mike’s arguments, though well-constructed, are flawed. For example, he recently mentioned that the Jews wouldn’t have “years,” as I apparently suggested before the Arab invasion. This disregards what would obviously be the gradual incubation of the state of Palestine. If the Jews of Yosh conduct their divorce from Israel now, they can begin the process I have outlined even while Palestine is not a fully-formed state.

  35. Rob Says:

    Greg, I see our common goal as removing these filthy erev rav from power. I believe the dati have the right, no, DUTY to follow Torah. I am willing to fight for this right. I am also willing to stand against the international community, as you put it.

    I have a slightly different scenario than either You , or Vienna Mike. Part of this scenario counts on the Jewishness of many “israelis”.

    You have underestimated the proponents of MY, if you think they will be relagated to goat herding due to isolation by the international community,as you put it. I’m sure they appriciate your confidence in them..

  36. Greg Cheslow Says:

    Rob, I’m sorry if you didn’t get my sarcasm. I was simply pointing out that a society cut off from the rest of the world cannot reach its full height. Without strong avenues of trade, Medinat Yehuda may very well lose its base. It’s fun and romantic to talk about dismissing the international community and going it alone, but conversations like this demand seriousness and realism, especially since Yosh isn’t exactly swimming in resources. It didn’t work for North Korea; it won’t work for Yehuda. Certain preconditions for success must be realized.

  37. Rob Says:

    Greg, I do not think your comparison between the rogue nation of No. Korea and the people of Yosh is an apples to apples comparison, in fact the State of Israel is close to rouge nation status as far as most of the world is concerned, or hadn’t you noticed? regardless, Israel seems to be doing well from an economic standpoint with really no natural resources as compared say, to the US.

    I would say that MY has the same resource potential as the state of Israel. That resource is people, Greg.

  38. Greg Cheslow Says:

    No, the state of Israel has the potential to become a rogue nation, but it’s still very much involved in trade and treaty organizations at the present moment. If there were economic sanctions and boycotts on the level of what South Africa experienced, then things would be quite different. Right now, Israel is very much a member of the international economy. That point should be immensely obvious.

    If Medinat Yehuda is born in the way Vienna Mike describes, it will be very much a rogue nation. Don’t try to draw comparisons to Israel’s founding. The international community favored the creation of a Jewish State, the Arabs attacked Israel, and Israel was perceived as an underdog. Medinat Yehudah would have none of that in the scenario we’re discussing.

    Yes, the Jews may be industrious and resourceful and productive, but you still need to be able to sell your goods and services, and not just through a few black markets here and there.

  39. Rob Says:

    Well thankfully Greg, The US has ultimatly stepped up when needed to defend Israel in the UN, and hopefully this will continue.

    Israel is currently viewed as a bully by all the canabalistic nations, why do you suppose this is Greg? How would you suggest the dati present themselves as under dogs? By getting their heads cracked by kapo’s on camera? or how bout’ having their homes destroyed, their lives disrupted and shattered, businesses, neighborhoods and communities destroyed and handed over to a people who are murderous savages, all in the name of peace, or should we say piece?

    What did you have in mind?

  40. Greg Cheslow Says:

    Rob… I’ve already detailed my plan. My suggestion is that the dati in Yosh render their nationalist movement dormant and divorce themselves from Israel while expressing a deep connection to the land of Judea and Samaria, insisting that they will not leave. “We’d rather be Palestinian citizens and live on this land than leave and be citizens of a goyish state that pretends to be Jewish. We won’t try to overthrow Palestine. Just leave us alone and let us conduct our business and wait for moshiach.”

    The rest I’ve already detailed.

    Hamas’ rise to power. Natural process of collective anti-semitism. Etc.

  41. Rob Says:

    There are many flaw’s with this plan Greg. B Kahane suggested something along these lines,omit the sitting on ones ass and waiting for moshiach and other nonsense, and is now DEAD… Next, the settlers are a tool used by the israeli government in the peace process as is clearly explained in detail on this blog, go read again, and again

    We’ve already seen what happens when the black suited jack boots come to “evacuate” the “settlers”

    “We’d rather be palestinian citizens and live on this land than leave and be citizens of a goyish state that pretends to be Jewish, we wont try to overthrow palestine. just leave us alone and let us conduct our business and wait for Moshiach” WOW!

    Greg, I am not Torah savy by any means, But I trust Vienna Mike will point out the many violations against Torah this statement carries.

  42. Greg Cheslow Says:

    Rob, you’re missing my point.

    The whole thrust of this plan is that the Jews orchestrate a campaign of deception. They need to appear as a submissive minority in order to slip into Palestinian citizenship. The whole idea is that this leads to an inevitable armed struggle, except in this plan it’s solely against the Arabs (no bombing Ashkenazim in Tel Aviv), the Jews have the support of sympathetic Israelis (and I would wager a fair number of international onlookers in addition to the Evangelicals), and the Jews have had time to develop business and a culture of efficiency, which enables funding and an effective engine of resistance.

  43. Rob Says:

    There is no way the israeli government, or the international community will allow jews to remain in areas that are handed over to arabs unless there is a level of armed resitance that brings the State to the point of negotiations with the dati/settlers, which is what this blog seems to advocate. I do not see this scenario happening. the government is clearly in control of the fate of the settlements, and the “settlers”. If you want to be the beta test for a jew living in the PA, you got brass plated hangies Bro!

    let me make it clear to you Greg, The arabs want to cut your head off, or smash it with rocks, or blow you to bits. do you actually think jews could live in a “PA” state?

  44. Greg Cheslow Says:

    This is the point that Vienna Mike raised.

    As I said earlier, if the Jews portray themselves as nonthreatening, I think it’s entirely possible that they could live in a PA state. Even Arafat suggested this. Islamic extremists always speak of how Jews and Christians and Muslims lived peacefully together under Islamic rule. This is exaggerated, of course, but the fact is they’d be willing to entertain the idea if they perceive a submissive Jewish minority.

    As for the international community, I’m sure they would have no issue with a multicultural Palestine. There’s simply no good reason to make Judea and Samaria free of Jews, and ethnic pluralism is a huge aspect of a healthy democracy (which is what the international community wants Palestine to be). If the PA is willing to grant citizenship to Jews, the international community would not protest.

    I understand your skepticism, but I think much of it hinges on a perception of the present-day conflict. Please keep in mind that a huge aspect of my plan is an orchestrated adjustment of image among the Jews. They need to present themselves as nonthreatening to the nascent Palestinian state. As I’ve said, they need to focus on the land and allow the nationalist sentiment to go dormant until the time is right.

    All that said, I acknowledge that it is very unlikely that the settlers would go dormant like that. I am presenting this plan as the best possible course of action, but not necessarily one that is likely to be pursued, just as the armed resistance against the Israelis that Vienna Mike advocates is not likely to be pursued any time soon.

    “Scenario 2” is what will most likely happen. There may be a few Jews in that land after Israel withdraws, but they will be scattered and probably docile.

  45. Greg Cheslow Says:

    On second thought, it may not even be necessary to orchestrate such a huge image campaign. It’s not as if all of the settlers need to demand to stay. Even if it’s just 10-20,000, that could be effective as a trigger.

    Here’s some reading I managed to scrap up on the topic.

    http://www.israelpolicyforum.org/analysis/so-why-cant-israeli-settlers-stay

    http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/09/alterman-let-the-settlers-stay-in-the-new-palestinian-state.html

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1014952.html

    And here’s a poll conducted a decade ago that found around 17% of settlers would consider living under Palestinian sovereignty.

    http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/cprspolls/97/setpoll2.html

  46. Rob Says:

    And we’ll all live happy ever after, LOL! Thats good stuff Greg. So you can go suggest this plan to be docile, mild mannered to the idealistic youth, God love every one of them, of Yosh. I would like to hear their reaction to suggestion that they “pretend” to be docile and obedient to an arab state which would be created from land given to the Children of Israel.

    I have a plan, it’s a great plan, but I need to close shop, I will detail it later

  47. Greg Cheslow Says:

    As I said, it’s unlikely to be implemented. However, it might not be necessary to have all of the Jews in Yosh behave this way. Even around 20,000 Jews in Palestine might be enough to serve as an effective trigger (especially in conjunction with Hamas taking over and instigating violence with an exasperated Israel).

    According to this poll conducted a decade ago, 17% of settlers would consider living under Palestinian sovereignty. I’d be interested in finding out what the number is today.

    http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/cprspolls/97/setpoll2.html

    The topic has been discussed on several outlets.

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1014952.html

    http://www.israelpolicyforum.org/analysis/so-why-cant-israeli-settlers-stay

    http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-5522827/Arab-Knesset-Member-Palestinian-Citizenship.html

    Even your beloved Samson brings it up, though he has a different rationale.

    http://samsonblinded.org/blog/it%E2%80%99s-better-to-be-herod%E2%80%99s-pig-than-his-son.htm

  48. Greg Cheslow Says:

    Strange… my comments aren’t showing up.

  49. Greg Cheslow Says:

    Ah, now they’re showing up. Here’s what I tried to say…

    As I said, it’s unlikely to be implemented. However, it might not be necessary to have all of the Jews in Yosh behave this way. Even around 20,000 Jews in Palestine might be enough to serve as an effective trigger (especially in conjunction with Hamas taking over and instigating violence with an exasperated Israel).

    According to this poll conducted a decade ago, 17% of settlers would consider living under Palestinian sovereignty. I’d be interested in finding out what the number is today.

    http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/cprspolls/97/setpoll2.html

    The topic has been discussed on several outlets.

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1014952.html

    http://www.israelpolicyforum.org/analysis/so-why-cant-israeli-settlers-stay

    http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-5522827/Arab-Knesset-Member-Palestinian-Citizenship.html

    Even your beloved Samson brings it up, though he has a different rationale.

    http://samsonblinded.org/blog/it%E2%80%99s-better-to-be-herod%E2%80%99s-pig-than-his-son.htm

  50. Greg Cheslow Says:

    Okay, for some reason my comments aren’t showing up. I think it’s because of the links I include. I’ll try to space them out. Check them out if you’re interested. Just put the links into the URL bar without the spaces.

    As I said, it’s unlikely to be implemented. However, it might not be necessary to have all of the Jews in Yosh behave this way. Even around 20,000 Jews in Palestine might be enough to serve as an effective trigger (especially in conjunction with Hamas taking over and instigating violence with an exasperated Israel).

    According to this poll conducted a decade ago, 17% of settlers would consider living under Palestinian sovereignty. I’d be interested in finding out what the number is today.

    www. pcpsr. org / survey / cprspolls / 9 7 / setpoll2. html

    The topic has been discussed on several outlets.

    www. haaretz . com / hasen / spages / 1014952 . html

    www. israelpolicyforum. org / analysis / so-why-cant-israeli-settlers-stay

    goliath. ecnext. com / coms2 / gi_0199-5522827 / Arab-Knesset-Member-Palestinian-Citizenship . html

    Even your beloved Samson brings it up, though he has a different rationale.

    samsonblinded . org / blog / it%E2%80%99s-better-to-be-herod%E2%80%99s-pig-than-his-son . htm

  51. Greg Cheslow Says:

    Oh, now it’s “awaiting moderation.”

    Stay tuned.

  52. Rob Says:

    They say the first step to recovery, is admitting you have a problem. I have yet to hear a reasonable argumemnt reconciling the behavior of IDF and black suited, jack boot kapo brigades. I see the pics in the previous blog entry showing an IDF soldier weilding a club presumably against an Israeli citizen of Yosh, a settler, I see the black kapo brigade in full riot gear, and an evil settler, a woman laying on the ground out cold from an apparent confrontation, yet I see no kapo’s nor IDF personell out cold, or with bullet wounds…

    One argument has been,”but these are jews, we cannot raise our hands against our brothers” ( I will give no other examples because I’m going to make myself barf if i continue ) yet these brothers so called have shown no lack of zeal in craking the heads of Jewish women and children.

    I submit that IDF would be easier to defeat than amelek, yes I am dead serious. Why? because they are not commited to anything worthy of commiting to. Were they to be met with like force, yes I am sure certain kapo types, mostly goyim from the FSU would certainly respond, ( I am in no way disrespecting the wonderful Jews who came from the FSU) The lemmings, for lack of a better term, (not mine, R Kahanes) say “you are nuts, if we shot at the security forces, they would just send more and completely destroy us!” My responce is I am certainly damned thankful the the colonial subjects of the crown, did not throw up their hands and give up after the first battle saying ” The King will send another battalion, and another battalion, it is a hopeless cause!”

    I submit that IDF will turn on itself in the event the black suited jack boots opened fire, or even return fire on the nationalist. I trust there are actually Jews in IDF, and the other security forces…

    A declaration of independence, and a list of grievances must be presented to the State government of Israel. of course the people who do this will become martyrs, as will those who initially stand up to the kapo brigades, But they will pave the way for either a conversion of the state of israel to MY, or an independent state such as we see in the books and chronicals of the Kings.

    The fears are understandable, the British colonialist’ had their fears, but they faced their fears and put their faith in the Almighty. Just as they had their Lafayette who for no clear reason came to the aid of the revolutionaries, using his influence, his military skills, his like ideaology, to assist in the defeat of the crown, So too the nationalist will have their Lafayettes, who will spend their fortunes and use their influence to assist the Jews of yosh in this most worthy of causes.

    The only alternative is to suffer a holocaust of hatchets and knives…

  53. Greg Cheslow Says:

    You just repeated what Vienna Mike said previously…and I responded to his points.

    My previous comment is still awaiting moderation.

  54. Rob Says:

    Those are my words, my thoughts, so I will take that as a compliment

  55. Vienna Mike Says:

    Note: Posts with multiple links, posts that are extremely short and posts that are very long will occasionally be caught by the spam filter. Those posts which contain multiple links are especially prone to this problem. Since the filter likely recognizes links by the http:// prefix, omitting this prefix will solve the problem and save the moderator much time spent rescuing mis-canned posts from the jaws of said spam filter.

  56. Vienna Mike Says:

    Sorry, Greg, your “plan” is unworkable. If you still don’t understand after I have carefully provided the Sharia relating to Jews under Islam, you never will

  57. Greg Cheslow Says:

    Fair enough. We’ll see what happens. Expect my return when the withdrawal is announced. I’ll be interested in seeing what you advocate.

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